Expectations of children in church choirs

[IWFH]

AIBU to think that children in a robed church choir ought to learn how to sit quietly and they shouldn't need bloody activity sheets (which they then argue about) to be given to them in order to keep them quiet, particularly when a couple of them are of secondary school age.
Yes I am of course a miserable old git (can you tell? 🤣) but as an adult choir member it's really irritating that the children no longer seem to be told how to behave or even how to just quietly read the hymn book during the sermon.

Hmm, I think most 8 or 9 year olds ought to be able to sit properly during a service, it's not do different from being at school. As for activity sheets, we have them at our church and they are out and available for all services. I've observed that most who need them are younger than 8. The all ages services - where everyone is in for the whole service - have activities, the other services have the childrens group where they go out after the first hymn. The take up of activity sheets is about the same during both types of Sunday service. We don't have a choir with kids though

These are good life tips.

I used to do a lot of invigilating at one school and I used to work out statistics based on what I could see. "30% of sixth form girls taking Maths favour chunky trainers while 2% prefer Doc Martens .."

In tedious Church choir rehearsals I like to invent life stories for the people in the memorials or try to figure out what the stained glass windows are all about.

I read a whole book in a staff meeting once, on a Kindle, popped inside the printout we'd been given.

What I mean is I didn't develop these skills as an adult. I'd had plenty of practice by age 8! And I'd like to think parents wouldn't be silly enough to enrol a child in a church choir if they didn't have that capability.

Not in a million years would I enrol my child.

She does quite well in music theatre though. Loves a crowd scene and can be a very active down and out, peasant, sans culottes...

That takes me back to waiting out the end of 3 hour A-level exams. I used to practice holding my breath. I could get close to a minute; handy for my swimming underwater skills.

Fortunately teacher invigilation ended after my first exam season in teaching so I didn't have to do too many of them.

Private schools can still make you invigilate, bah.

I tried to memorise the whole of The Rime of the Ancient Mariner to get me through those end of exams times. I got to about verse 11... (my grandad could do the whole thing as a party trick!)

I was in the church choir for years (many against my will!) from the age of about 7. We all knew we had to behave and sit quietly. It was dead boring, but yes, I completely agree that if they're choosing to be in the choir it's part of the role. They should be expected to fulfil that. We are doing children no favours at all with this expectation that continuous entertainment be on tap. I'm not religious at all but part of becoming a functioning adult imho is learning to be bored sometimes and still not misbehave!

My brother and I were in the church choir alongside a little gang of our friends (including the vicar's two boys) in the 1970s. All from church going families and well versed in discipline.

We weren't particularly well behaved, in fact I'd say we got away with anything we could. On one memorable occasion the vicar's eldest son climbed out of the vestry window and went to the villlage shop to buy us sweets during a wedding. I'm sure fidgeting and giggling choir boys and girls aren't a new thing.

Your memory of holding your breath took me right back to the Jennings books.

I was in various choirs and music groups from the age of 8, up until adulthood. And the expectation was very much that you sit still and in silence until it is your turn to do something. You're bored? Think about something. You're still bored? Oh well. Honestly, it would have never even occurred to us to even MENTION being bored. We just accepted it.
Yes it was often boring, but it also taught me a valuable skill. The skill of just "turning your brain off" and going into "waiting mode". I remember my first choir teacher telling us to "just sit and think peaceful thoughts" when she was working with other sections.
Kids today seem incapable of being bored. But a lot of that is down to the adults they are with being scared to have them be a bit bored.

My DS' were choristers nearly 30 years ago , from 8 and 9 in a church male choir. They were all able to sit quietly. My friends AuADHD boy was placed on the end and the choir master sat next to him. He was fine, knew he had to behave.

I think so little is expected of kids now, expecting little creates a low bar.

A friend used to teach a sport to kids, he says that 25 years ago kids could concentrate for a lesson and had a certain fitness level. Now teaching nothing can last for than 5 minutes before changing activities or taking a break.

Dd sang with our local choral society (Handel's Messiah and the like) for 10 years, first in the youth choir and then the adult choir. The youth choir starts from age 7. They are absolutely expected to sit still when not singing, and they are not allowed to wave at parents. This is a skill worth encouraging in children.

We had to sit quietly and look interested in the sermon

To be fair, this can be challenging even for adults. We used to have a vicar who never prepared his sermons in advance, and every single one would go on for at least 20 minutes and would contain at least four points at which we thought it was going to end. We wondered at the time if he'd thought the same, but then he thought of something else to say. I can only begin to imagine what it must have been like for the children.

It's shit being a child made to go to church by adults.

Oh yes. And it's even worse if those adults don't go to church themselves. Take this from one who knows.

Both of my DC are ND and both were cathedral choristers at 9 so YANBU. There is no way that during an important televised service they would have been doing anything other than sitting still and behaving!! The rest of the time they had a number of very discreet activities (including practising how to raise one eyebrow and not the other and some totally incomprehensible finger game.)

DS1 doesn't do choir any more but some of the younger children will sit on the floor quietly and colour when it's not time to sing. Sometimes little siblings who can't actually read the words yet will try to join in. I think it's nice. (The children's choir sing at family mass so everyone expects some noise and wriggling).

This, think I was 7 or 8 when I joined; we knew what was expected of us behaviour wise.

@zingally i agree about putting one’s brain in “waiting mode”, it is indeed a useful skill.

The problem with my choir director’s slow waffling is that in one in twenty sentences, he says something important, that we need to know, so we can never switch off. The rest is filigree. “Here are your starting notes.” (Organist plays them). “Tenderly. Move me to tears. Blah blah blah, observe the crescendi and diminuendi, remember to look at my left hand: score in the head, not head in the score. I want a big contrast. Starting notes again. Remember this is a moving occasion. Starting notes again.” Etc.

I’ll be getting out of this choir soon, and I know they’ll beg me to stay, because I have a good voice.

Read the hymnbook?????? Let em have the activity sheets, why not? Let em argue over them. Children belong in the world and belong in church. How lucky you are to have young children in church. Adds a bit of life, good grief.

It's not unreasonable for children that age to be restless but it doesn't sound like expectations have been made particularly clear to them. I think there are two things going on simultaneously - attention spans are poorer, which isn't good, but we no longer expect children to be seen and not heard and we accept that they are, in fact, children - which is. So what is wrong with activity sheets?

Came to say the same thing. Fidgeting and talking was absolutely not tolerated. We have very young altar servers and they also sit still and quietly all through mass.

There have always been parts of the service which bore the youngsters, but as a young chorister, I learned how to maintain the facade of maintaining an interested expression which can be so useful in later life.
Burial of the Dead at Sea, Table of Kindred and Affinities, racy bits of the Bible, and later on, learning homework secreted up the sleeve until a lull in proceedings, One friend was revising for her exams as a dental nurse, and the diagrams were awesomely gruesome. Two enterprising sorts had a travelling chess set about their person and played a tournament round every week.
When I became a teacher, one of our regular appointments was the PTA Service, where visiting preachers were variable in quality. I promised the boys one housepoint minimum for giving up their Sunday evening, with extra awarded on a scale according to how boring the sermon was.

I went to evensong in a cathedral a while ago. And one of the ‘full choristers” (he had his surplice) was fidgeting like mad, and never actually sang a note. I have never ever seen a chorister behave like that in a cathedral choir. He got a ticking off from the chaperone.

Sorry for the delay in answering a couple of questions. No prizes for guessing where I've been for the last few hours. 😁
To confirn it's a robed parish choir - trad music accompanied from the organ. No it's not a Cathedral choir - but I still think the behaviours should be similar.
To the poster who said 8 is too young and the minimum age should be 12 I'm afraid that is utter nonsense, unless you never want to hear a trained boy treble voice again. I clearly have higher expectations of children's ability to behave than you do.
The thing that makes me sad is that being a child in a choir is one of the few instances where a child can participate as an equal member to the adults. Part of that is predicated by knowing how to behave in that environment. As a child I found this really refreshing and the experience has undoubtedly helped me with confidence throughout my life.

grumpy older members of the congregation

To be more accurate I'm a grumpy older member of the choir and I'll wear that badge with pride 🤣

Sitting still is quite a sophisticated concept. It often requires a degree of patience and self-sufficiency. It implies the ability to tolerate inactivity and find mental engagement or quieness while "awaiting ones turn" in a performance or social activity. Individuals must rely on their thoughts, imagination, or inner world rather than external stimulation, At the same time they have to be aware of cues for when it is their turn to deliver their next action in the sequence.

I dont believe these skills are taught any more either in schools or in the home. Many parents feel its cruel to restrict children from being free. The result is that not only children but many adults now lack the self discipline and resilliance to amuse themselves while waiting. They need someone or something else to entertain them.

8 is too young for a church choir that’s not a children’s choir. I’d definitely say 11. At secondary school definitely. Some won’t read the words at 8! Is the choir desperate for bodies?