Expectations of children in church choirs

[IWFH]

AIBU to think that children in a robed church choir ought to learn how to sit quietly and they shouldn't need bloody activity sheets (which they then argue about) to be given to them in order to keep them quiet, particularly when a couple of them are of secondary school age.
Yes I am of course a miserable old git (can you tell? 🤣) but as an adult choir member it's really irritating that the children no longer seem to be told how to behave or even how to just quietly read the hymn book during the sermon.

@ruethewhirl Absolutely. I think we know that’s the case but parents and dc follow the herd. Only a few tough it out.

@alatusblack Is YR listening to a sermon and a lot of prayers? Do you have none of the dc with low attention span as many teachers have spoken about?

Those tiny choristers in the Carols from Kings every Christmas Eve!

i agree with you, mine were choristers and did sit still though they played noughts and crosses on the service sheets.

It's worked well for centuries - why shouldn't it still work?

Because centuries ago an
awful lot of children hadn't had their brains fried by screens?

It can't be a coincidence that those I know who are best able to cope with this sort of thing are the very ones whose parents don't allow them much if at all

Typo

I think many kids are just too savvy these days to sit through a church service in the way they used to do.

Savvy?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.

Both of my sons started singing in church choirs, learnt the organ as a result of that, and both were earning money playing for church services from about 14, earning £80 odd a week for playing for two hours (one service and one rehearsal.).
Clearly my offspring just aren't 'savvy'' enough to recognise a sodding great opportunity and to grab it.

I do wonder about one thing: Mumsnet is very full of people who deride organised religion. I wonder if this is a generational backlash at being made to sit quietly through church, as a chorister or not, as @redboxer321 said, and are thinking “I will not put my children through this”.

“you can't blame kids for acting up when they are forced to do something they don't want.”

I absolutely can blame the kid. We aren’t talking about a toddler here. The lowering of expectations to the point of “kids only have to behave appropriately if doing exactly what they want to do” is doing both child and their school teachers a disservice. Sometimes you have to do stuff that you don’t like, is boring or is uncomfortable - children need to learn to behave appropriately and do it anyway.

Yes they should and YANBU however, I dont blame them if they don't really want to be there and its a parent choice!

I was a bit of a PITA at Sunday School myself. My parents sent me to get a break (Im.probably ADHD) but I asked rather a lot of questions which, certainly in the 70s, wasnt the done thing - we were supposed to lap up all the religious messages and just believe.

I sort of agree with some other posters that say children do have to learn to behave appropriately doing stuff they dont like. Thats true to some degree for things we have to do. School. Dentists. Doctors. Essential things. But parents more and more live through their kids and there is no good reason why a child should go to church choir if they dont want to.

@IWFH But they are musicians. They have a talent. You surely don’t think everyone is the same? That’s obviously not possible and just proves my point. Choirs are better for dc who are bright up in a certain way and have a talent as well as not being over dependent on screens. You seem to think all dc should be like yours. That’s not realistic.

As I said previously, I'm not a good singer. Enthusiastic at one point but to this day I won't open my mouth to sing in public, at least not when I'm sober. I was 9 or 10 years old. The choir performed a piece where they left the stalls to stand on the chancel steps to sing something. I was told to lie down in the stalls hidden from sight when they got up to leave so my voice didn't spoil it. My parents who were both members said nothing. My mother is a worse singer than me but she wasn't told to lie down. They just went for the low lying fruit. And still I had to go every week not only to the service but choir practise as well. So no, I wouldn't expose my child to such damaged and damaging people as those I encountered in the church. Fuck those good christian people is what I say. I'm also a lesbian, something I think I supressed thanks to the rampant homophobia within the church. So no @scalt it's not just about being made to sit quietly. And I'm aware that the church has done other people far far more harm than it did me. Something you may want to consider before you post about people on MN deriding organised religion.

They didn't start as musicians - but most people can sing and learn and play an active part in a choir. My two just happened to get on very well with it - they are both far more musically able than I am.
My AIBU though is about behaviour.
I firmly believe that given boundaries most children will behave in an acceptable manner most of the time. A lot of adults seem to have given up on that. I honestly find it rather depressing that so many people have such low expectations of the basic behaviour of their offspring, or in this case the children they are (not) managing as part of the choir.

I was brought up going to church and sitting still and quiet was something that was insisted on from being tiny. I suspect there is an element of personality there too but I famously sat through a performance of Handel's Messiah aged 3. I have always been able to entertain myself in my head for hours. I was taken to lots of things that would probably be considered too grown up nowadays and it was useful.

The children's choir sang in my church this morning at Mass. They're aged 7 to 12. They all sat quietly with their Missals and followed the readings, homily, and the rest of the Mass except when it was time for them to sing.

Agree!

It really is very simple. Don't force them to be in a church choir when they clearly don't want to be. School? That's a very different matter. Be interesting to know what the parent's reasons are for making them sing in the church choir.

@redboxer321.
I'm genuinely sorry for your experience and can understand why it's put you off.

BUT - why on earth are you assuming that the children don't want to be there?

You are making a whole series of completely unwarranted assumptions based on no knowledge at all. I know the children and have seen no evidence that they don't want to be there, and honestly I don't know their motivation so how you claim to know it I have no idea. The adults are providing the activity sheets - not the children.

@IWFH We know people have low expectations though so I’m not sure why you are surprised at choir. I don’t think everyone is suitable to be in a choir any more than everyone is suitable to play in a football team. It takes a certain amount of willingness and dedication. There are many dc who have neither. I do think parenting is an issue and parents give in very easily. They don’t have high expectations and say sc have sen.

You could look at it from a different point of view. They have actually turned up. That’s good! My DD sings rather complicated sung Eucharist services. Not everyone can do that or wants to do it. Quite a few people like me would prefer a good selection of well known hymns to sing! So with dc who starting out as singers, they could perhaps do less, build up to more input and have a service where they contribute a lot every so often? Vary the diet in other words. Make them team players and rotate the team.

However you are pushing against a tide and the choir could alter its recruitment policy. No attention span - no choir.

@IWFH I am basing my assumptions on a couple of things:
Church attendance has been on the decline for decades. I don't think many children would choose to spend their Sunday mornings at church. They may be the exception but the law of averages says they don't want to be there.
They are clearly not engaged in the service and arguing about activity sheets which are a distraction.
The fact their parents give them these things to occupy them is because they fear they will more disruptive if they don't.

You see no evidence that they don't want to be there but what evidence do you see that they do?
And, as you know the children and presumably the parents, why don't you talk to them about it?

Popping back to post this, which discusses resilience and concentration spans. Worth a read for anyone involved with children.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-180595833

My DC loved singing but not at church regularly. A children’s choir was much better. @EdithStourton I think that explains what most of us knew. Society has changed for dc. It does not help them concentrate! They need constant stimulation and aren’t able to sit quietly when not active. Some children can, but many aren’t capable.
Blaming the dc seems very unfair.

Blimey! How times have changed…

I was the youngest Church choir member at age 7, but it was normal then to behave at Church (RC, taught by Nuns at school).

It was an honour to learn how to sing with a choir, in Latin, often, too. I started as a Soprano, then graduated to the Alto’s as I got older. Our choirmaster was very ambitious and we did some truly amazing pieces.

As I recall, there simply wasn’t time to do anything other than concentrate, listen and practice. We did every 10am Sunday Mass, with new works and hymns introduced constantly, so the two-hour rehearsal every Thursday was intense!

Poor kids probably bored. They’re too young to know if they want to be in a church choir surely? E.g haven’t evaluated their own religious beliefs?

I do think it sounds as if they are not being challenged enough from a musical point of view - but perhaps they’re not at a level where that can be done.

@Worralorra So no long sermon or prayers? Nothing else but singing? RC is different though I think. Could you sing parts and everything, eg sung Eucharist, at 7? Genius!