Expectations of children in church choirs

[IWFH]

AIBU to think that children in a robed church choir ought to learn how to sit quietly and they shouldn't need bloody activity sheets (which they then argue about) to be given to them in order to keep them quiet, particularly when a couple of them are of secondary school age.
Yes I am of course a miserable old git (can you tell? 🤣) but as an adult choir member it's really irritating that the children no longer seem to be told how to behave or even how to just quietly read the hymn book during the sermon.

This has taken me back to the most tedious hours of my life, I wasn't in choir but I came from a religious family who believed children should sit through sermons (as was the norm in those days tbf). I remember crying tears of boredom. I hated it so much I'd dread Sunday all week and as soon as I was old enough to decide for myself I never went back and still haven't. So perhaps the church is trying to retain its young flock?

8 is too young for a church choir that’s not a children’s choir.

So all the cathedral choirs, plus the King's College choir and the Chapel Royal, have been Doing It Wrong all these centuries?

Why?
I fundamentally disagree with this stance - as long as the children are appropriately trained,
seven or eight is a great age to start. It's worked well for centuries - why shouldn't it still work?

I sang in a church choir from the age of 8. This was back in the 1980s. We were expected to sit still and behave appropriately during the first third and last third of the service, but for the middle third (including the sermon) all the children up to and including Y8 went out for Sunday school.

From Y9 (then third year secondary) the child choristers moved to the adult section of the choir, stayed in for the whole service and were expected to listen to the sermon.

@IWFH in the circumstances the op describes, 8 is too young. For aspiring cathedral choristers from musical families and dc able to concentrate, 7 or 8 of course is ok. You are missing the general point about concentration and behaviour. Any teacher would tell you some dc cannot manage to concentrate for long so participation in a choir is questionable . They cannot be trained by the choir leader - these aren’t compliant dc. These are not hand picked, trained, musical choristers. They are general dc going to an ordinary church so unfortunately many modern dc cannot concentrate. The church could do a trial period to ascertain suitability?

My boys were in the boys section of the full choir, up to 20 boys and around 15 men. From around 8 up to 80 ish. Boys could read well enough to learn the words and read the music. Choir practice taught both to the boys. It was a big commitment but they had opportunities and learnt a lot. All boys received 'pay' for attending services and extra for weddings. TV appearances once in a blue moon and singing in cathedrals occasionally. 8 is plenty old enough to learn the skills.

Never seen this. 8/9 is plenty old enough to sit still, after all in the congregation there are plenty younger kids who behave well throughout.

I can imagine offering a training choir, so that there are children who do just the procession in, first hymn, responses, psalm, lessons and then out before the sermon, presumably to children’s church. Then a graduation to full choir participation when they have shown/matured to being able to sit still.

Oops, that’s exactly what @Faircastle said they saw in the 80s!

We'll have to agree to differ. I went down this route as a child, my sons both did and there are plenty of other people on this thread who did too. Not pretending anyone was angelically perfect but there was an expectation of behaviour that everyone understood.
Didn't seem to do any of us any harm - but the benefits are enormous.

I was in a robed church choir 7-17 in the 1980s. The older kids progressed to deputy and team leaders for a group of 6 younger kids and we’d meet weekly. Very few kids left the choir. We had to sit and listen in services, but they were not unrealistically long - 25 mins at morning service and the children choristers left when the children went to young church. We sang at Weddings. No activity sheets. But we did recognise that children needed to know what the time was and what time they would be leaving.

The effect of being stricter about this: the more capable and compliant ones will behave better but enjoy it less and leave sooner.
This isn't necessarily true.
I had a very capable and compliant one. The most common reason for her wanting to give up something like this was other children's behaviour and feeling that it was pointless trying because the focus was on those who weren't bothering to try to behave.

It's something that intrigues me currently. Expectations/lack of practice/SEN/different methods? What is the reason that children don't seem to be able to concentrate as well nowadays?

I think back to our assemblies at primary. Year R didn't come in for the first couple of weeks. But after that they'd have attended 3 assemblies a week. Assemblies were generally around Forty-five minutes to an hour.
We walked in in silence with music playing from a record and sat cross legged on the floor.
We started with a greeting.
Infants sang a song.
Had a story from the head.
Junior Song
Prayers
Birthdays (where everyone with a birthday went up and could talk about presents/parties etc)
Anything anyone wanted to share (could be a badge from Brownies, or something that happened on the way home)
Any notices
We left to the same music playing as the beginning, again in silence.

This was a standard state primary school. We had our share of children with behavioural issues or SEN, many undiagnosed back then, but I can look back and think "that's obvious now".
Very occasionally a child, normally year R, would walk out to the toilet or similar, but on the whole we sat there, listening and there was no whispering etc. I don't recall anyone complaining about sitting there, or not being able to cope with it.
So what's changed? It wasn't a particularly strict school, or unusual, so I assume many other schools also did this.

Choristers start at age 8
Ive never heard of activity sheets being handed out
They just sit quietly
So yes I think it’s ridiculous

Depends - why does the church have the kids in the choir at all? If the kids are kids who want to be in the choir, who are there because they have chosen to be, and actually have some desire to work on their singing, then yes absolutely, a condition of being in the choir should be you sit and listen and don't need colouring to keep you still and quiet.

If these kids are kids who've been asked with some pressure to be in the choir, because the church has had a sudden idea that it would be awesomely cute to have some kids there, and have co-opted them into the role. Then let them have colouring, let them have sweets (when they aren't singing), whatever, to slightly make up for the fact they are kindly doing something boring to help the church's image.

I wasn"t sure how this thread would go. But I took the OT reading this morning (Isaiah 11 8) as an omen.

So my heartfelt thanks to the 88% of the nest of vipers who think IANBU. 🤣

Same. We all did.

@IWFH As I said, dc from musical families know what’s expected and are bringing up with participation in mind. They probably learn a musical instrument and are probably compliant and bright. I had expectations of my DD but we have an epidemic of dc who cannot concentrate and need entertainment all the time. Post covid research tells you what you need to know about the issues schools face. Choirs are no different.

My DD got a choral scholarship at Oxford and still sings. I certainly understand the value of singing but you cannot expect all dc to be as we were as dc in the last century. That ship has sailed and they don’t see the benefits as you do. Gaming and screen time has taken over and continual entertainment - times have changed .

I think we were all much more used to being bored.

Everyone is perpetually entertained now. Anyone who sat through a wet, winter Sunday in 1974 could manage a 25 minute assembly.

Well I’m probably coming at it from an extreme
angle, but my DS2 is a cathedral chorister and has been expected to sit through very long services from the age of 8! He’s just a normal kid and has never had a problem doing it and neither have his mates, so I would definitely say Yanbu!

Lol!! DS was a booming baritone at 12!

These children will also be expected to sit quietly and listen at school, even if it's another year group doing what they find to be a very tedious and long-winded 10 minute assembly.

Sitting quietly through the sermon shouldn't be that much of a challenge for the average 8 yr old. The fact that it has become so is genuinely worrying.

8! They should certainly be able to sit nicely at that age. I teach reception, and even mine have learned to behave well for our little concerts. The odd wriggle is fine, but definitely not chatting and colouring pictures.

I think many kids are just too savvy these days to sit through a church service in the way they used to do. Many will already have doubts or simply not believe what they are being told. Some of the older children will have at least some knowledge of some of the abuses perpetuated by the church. I know that there is also a lot of good done too. I'm not sure what parents think they are achieving by sending their kids to church. If they want to go fine, but I think the numbers of kids who would want to go to church on a Sunday morning must be very small and so you can't blame kids for acting up when they are forced to do something they don't want.

That ship wouldn’t have ‘sailed’ if so many parents didn’t use things like gaming and screen time as a cop-out. It’s lazy parenting imo.

Many will already have doubts or simply not believe what they are being told.

They're not being asked to believe anything they don't believe. They're being asked to take part in an activity - singing - and sit quietly when it's not their turn. No different from how they'd be expected to behave at any other extra-curricular activity.