Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

Brick by brick the whole house of delusion is slowly being pulled down
brava to those who initiated the safeguarding questions at GG

In the last thread I was going to reply to this post but missed the end of the thread.

CohensDiamondTeeth · Today 01:07
Apologies ^ I didn't realise you had PM'd me.^
Can I have your permission to copy & paste your answer to my question into the thread please?

SolidMam · Today 07:14
Morning ^ that's okay, if you want to. I'll get people telling me I'm doing the wrong thing for affirming and supporting her but that's okay, I'm getting used to it on here.^

@SolidMam Thank you, I appreciate it!

So to catch up, your trans identifying child joined GG when they were accepting boys with trans identities, and now they have had to accept that they are acting unlawfully and against their stated charitable aims, your child is having to leave GGs. I can fully appreciate how this has been upsetting to you both, although agree with those in the last thread that unfortunately your child should never have been encouraged, or allowed to join a female single sex only group.

You said you had known your child as a daughter for longer than you knew them as a son, and given the age of GGs I had asked how old your child was, and when you started using female pronouns etc.

You didn't mention their age, but you did say that before they could even talk they were asserting their desire to be a girl. So I asked how did your child assert themselves as female before they could talk?

You replied via PM
"In terms of the pre-verbal thing, we'd point to pictures of female characters etc and she'd make it clear that she was identifying herself with them."

As I said in my PM I do think there is a fair bit to unpick from your posts and your answer above. There is lots that I would disagree with or like to discuss further if that's ok with you if you feel up to it?

For example, do you think perhaps it's possible that you may have misinterpreted a pre-verbal child pointing at characters etc as a desire to be a girl, inadvertently encouraging the belief in them that they had a trans identity from that point on?

I'll be honest, I was as shocked by you saying your child was asserting their desire to be a girl from before they could even talk, as I was the PPs account of a 4 year old who's parents say their child also has a trans identity.

Absolutely!

GG only complied with the law, and their charitable aims under threat of a lawsuit from a concerned mother, they brought in males by stealth. It's pretty shocking.

I'm actually amazed that they did decide to follow the law. I was slightly concerned that they'd do an NHS Fife and blow through our annual subscriptions and activity centre sale money on legal fees.

A pre-verbal child pointing to pictures was interpreted as the child declaring their gender identity?

That is up there with Diane Ehrensaft’s cues of boys unsnapping onsies to make a skirt and girls pulling out hair clips.

Sometimes children simply don’t like the feel of material around their legs or having anything in their hair Diane. And doing it three times doesn’t make it a ‘gender message’.

I would very much like to thank the mum who informed GG that she was taking them to court. Well done that mother! And thank you.

I’m a leader and mother of a Ranger and I very much welcome this decision, although I am disappointed by their begrudging message. It still appears that they care more about the boys’ feelings than the girls’ safeguarding.

Yes, well the quote was "In terms of the pre-verbal thing, we'd point to pictures of female characters etc and she'd make it clear that she was identifying herself with them." but essentially this poster says their male child who couldn't even talk yet was already indicating a desire to be a girl.

She said in another post that when the child's assertion they were a girl was refuted, the child got very distressed, so eventually they just accepted that their son was now their daughter. The child is still pre-pubescent, so still very young.

In fairness to @SolidMam , she says she believes that identity isn't fixed, and that if their child were to desist she would support that too.

I'm kind of questioning whether this perhaps unconsciously came from the parents at the pre-verbal stage.
Maybe the parents misinterpreted a child who couldn't talk, possibly they have biases of their own they are unaware of(?).
Either way it seems that young child who has grown up being told(?) from before they could talk would believe that they are a girl, and then of course anyone who insists on correctly sexing them would be wrong to the child's mind and would lead to a very distressed and confused young boy.

This was an interesting thread in FWR, and I wonder if SolidMam has read it. It was started by Katie Alcock, Senior Lecturer in Psychology at Lancaster University.

In the interview she says basically that children at certain ages see long hair and that = woman, you can put a dog mask on a cat, and for the child the cat becomes a dog.
I'm about to be on Free Speech Nation | Mumsnet

Borntobequiet, another poster added a very good allegory into the discussion "Of course, in RL we know that small children think (for example) that someone dressed up as Santa in a grotto is actually Santa, so it’s not at all unlikely."

In her thread she also shared the article below
Young children, reality, sex and gender | by Katie Alcock | Medium

I just wanted to highlight a few things about scouts as they came up on the last thread.
First, scouts is an entirely separate organisation to guides. They are not legally connected.
Second, scouts was not forced to become mixed sex. They made an active choice to do so. No one can fully know their motivations for doing so. However, it is likely motivated at least in part by declining male youth membership at the time, and by increasing female adult volunteers.
Third, although little recognised single sex provision is possible within scout groups as long as groups offer opportunities for boys and girls. So for example you can run a scout group with separate male and female scout sections. It isnt common, but it is possible. Some muslim scout groups operate this way.

Girl.guides didnt officially say they would become mixed sex. They said they were single gender. By accepting members based on gender identity alone they allowed males who identify as girls and women to join. This had two implications. The single sex environment was lost. Furthermore, as males with a female gender identity were to be treated as girls and women they would have access to spaces where girls sleep, change and shower potentially without the knowledge or permission of youth members or parents.

Girl guides could officially become mixed sex and adopt appropriate safeguarding procedures. They can remain single sex. The options are there. It apoears 'with a heavy heart' they have decided to remain single sex.

What they cant do is become mixed sex but 'single gender' and ignore the issues that need to be recognised in a mixed sex organisation.

Cohen

I understand that some parents feel that their child can desist at any time. However, what chance is there of that happening when the child already understands that everyone around them has made some kind of investment - even if just emotional, into this belief that they, the child, was the opposite sex to their body’s sex.

Even Dr Hilary Cass (and there are other clinicians) stated clearly that just using opposite sex language for a child can cement them into an identity and make them feel they don’t have that freedom to desist. Particularly if their friends are supporting their being the opposite sex.

I cannot imagine a child being able to sort through the messaging to articulate any change of identity.

At the risk of boring people, those new to gender ideology may not know about the obfuscating language, which is where some of the misunderstandings about it may come from.
A trans woman or trans girl is a male. A trans man or trans boy is a female. So Girl Guides is, quite rightly, only for females, however they identify. Anyone wanting a mixed sex group can join Scouts instead.

@Helleofabore
This reminds me of the time when CAMHS asked my autistic daughter if she was really a boy because she preferred the feel of 'boys' clothes and kept her hair short because brushing is painful.

So many girls identifying as boys now because professionals who should know better are mistaking autism, and sensory issues, as gender issues.

Thank you yes! I had meant to write about the chances of desisting with an affirmation only parent was extremely unlikely.

If a child has gone from the pre-verbal age being affirmed by parents, schools, Girl Guides, and almost everyone in between, IMO there is next to no chance of desistance. I think it's highly likely that child would go on to the trans medicalisation path, which is terribly destructive to a healthy young person's body.

And the emotional damage to that child, which is now being felt because groups like GG are being held to the law, could have been entirely avoided.

I am trying to be gentle on the principle that there may be a real parent with a real child here, but I am shocked that parents are putting this on their children from before they can even talk(!!), and with slightly older children, by not being upbeat but matter of fact about how they can't be a girl because they are a boy, but boys can like/do (whatever) too!

Just some more on Katie Alcock. She, a psychologist, was one of the first to publicly raise the alarm about the harms of the GG policy that allowed male children to join as if they were female children.

https://medium.com/@katieja/a-year-ago-i-was-removed-from-girlguiding-d72f0e9f9692

And still GG chose to believe Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and to centre male people in Girl Guiding.

Indeed.

As I said, children react to things for very much their own reasons. That Ehrensalt is on record to say that if a girl removes hair clips three times that is a 'gender message'. That is very fucked up considering I, myself, as a child did not like hair clips and most definitely would have removed them myself.

If there is a professional gender clinician saying these things, what fucking chance is there for parents to get meaningful advice? Particularly, if that parent is so entrenched in a mindset that any one who disagrees with them is a bigot, hateful and wishes your child doesn't exist that they simply will not consider any advice from outside their limited selection of resources.

It is a recipe for disaster and abuse for a child to have someone such as Ehrensalt out there giving talks and spreading serious misinformation about children giving out 'gender messages' when they are pre-verbal.

Am I right in saying that even though GG will revert back to being truly single sex for girls, that there are still trans identifying adult males in GG who are still being treated as female?

I would like to point out that affirmation only of pre-pubescent children, is now likely to fail. Whilst I am aware of the situation in @SingleSexSpacesInSchools DC's school, more and more are taking a sex realist position.

The Department for Education mandated a few years back that all data about children in schools must be recorded as by their sex, with the optional extra of also recording gender identity if wished.
All of the local primary schools to me require parents to bring in a copy of their child's birth certificate, when the child starts at the school, which will record their sex.

The secondary school I teach in, separates all children for sport into single sex classes, from year 7, regardless of gender identity. A transboy will be offered a single changing place, if they do not wish to change with the other girls, but they would not be allowed in to the male changing rooms.

We are seeing far fewer "transchildren" than 5 years ago. There are a few more NB girls, almost exclusively autistic girls.

What I'm trying to say, is that society cannot sustain the lie that a child change sex. Responsible schools (and societies) are supporting gender distressed children, without doing them the unkindness of lying to them.

No human can change sex. There are differences in the bodies of the two sexes, and sometimes those differences are important.

Plus, the report on how boys take over social spaces is absolutely what every school teacher has ever seen.

Girls have the right to a single sex space, as has been confirmed by the highest law court in this land.

Even one boy, makes that space mixed sex.

This. Did pp ever establish what her son meant by ‘girl’?

Small children are still learning language and categories. Child logic is not like adult logic.

When ds was tiny, he saw Halloween stuff and was scared. We tried to explain to him that it was funny, not scary. So the new word he had learnt was that he didn’t like ‘funny’ things because they made him feel scared.

Kids make links and are constantly trying to learn rules that will help them understand the world. If there is a flaw in one of their early associations, it can throw their whole line of reasoning. I heard of a girl who said she wanted to be a boy, when questioned by sane parents, it turned out she thought that only boys could sleep in bunk beds and she wanted a bunk bed.

It is not kind to agree with a child that their categorisation of themselves as the opposite sex is correct. It sets them up for a lifetime of lies and potentially ill health if medication to change appearance is sought.

If any other psychological condition were diagnosed in their children, most parents would look at all the treatment options and certainly not preclude the least invasive treatments from being tried first and thoroughly. We know that puberty mostly resolves these feelings of incongruence in children.

Proper, open minded therapy or counselling would help uncover the vast majority of ‘gender questioning’ kids whose feelings stem from sexual abuse, grief, autism, or familial homophobia. None of these feelings are best treated by agreeing that the child is really the opposite sex and will ultimately need to harm their health to achieve the appearance that corresponds with their misdirected feelings.

As a pp put it very well on the other thread - these ‘affirming’ parents are writing a cheque that they expect the rest of us to cash.

I think that GG needs to acknowledge not only the damage done to female children and leaders in their decision to lower the standards of their safeguarding processes and the removal of female single sex provision. They also should acknowledge the contribution to harm to these male children.

I cannot imagine being welcomed and celebrated as a GG only to then be told ‘sorry you are not a girl after all.’ How do these male children cope with having some adults tell them that they are girls and that they are female yet for only some purposes?

How do adults expect children to understand that they are only a girl and a female person sometimes while you are always really a male person?

It’s fantastic news GirlGuides are going back to their roots as a girls only organisation. It was awful they allowed some boys in but not all and no safeguarding measures. I hope GirlGuiding lasts a long time, and this will be one day considered a dark part of their history!

The tone is disappointing, and I suspect it’ll take a new leadership team to truly get Girl Guides back to its roots / normal. It’s a bit concerning that boys weren’t immediately barred - obviously that’s the sensible measure to take, hopefully in the message next week. Perhaps they’re contacting the boys families individually first before putting a message out.

What I think disgusts me the most about the GGs at the moment is that they are so disappointed that they need to follow the law and actually BE a single sex space (even though this is their mission!).

Who at the top is so captured that they don't even see the problem that they brought entirely on themselves? Their failure to safeguard girls is completely unforgivable in my opinion.

I have even less respect for them as an organisation than before because of the wording of their statements which only have concern for the impact on male people and has no apology for the impact on the very girls it is set up to support.

I do sympathise with any non batshit volunteer who was put in a difficult position by organisational stupidity, and is now put in another one. All because of the initial failure to safeguard female single sex space. You can bet it won't be those with organisational power taking on any difficult conversations that might be needed.

‘affirming’ parents are writing a cheque that they expect the rest of us to cash.

yes. Expecting other people and children to act as if a person is materially what they say they are when they are not, is certainly not respectful or kind.

Yet it is constantly framed as being both which is emotionally manipulative and coercive. I don’t think some of those who make the accusations that people are disrespectful and unkind understand the coercive pressure that they are attempting to put on others. I think they have unthinkingly absorbed and repeated dishonest falsities that groups have framed as progressive.

When you see similar sentiments expressed by GG, it is hugely concerning. The messaging we are giving to our female children that they have to accept things as materially real that are not is very harmful. Messaging our girls that they should not have boundaries and that their consent isn’t sought or needed, that they simply must accept this is just wrong on many levels.

Frankly I think everyone involved in pandering to boys at the expense of girls should resign because they are not suitable people to be running the girl guides. If they hate prioritising girls so much, why are they running a girl's organization. They should go.

I agree. They need a complete restructure with new people at the helm. They can’t be trusted.