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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

741 replies

CohensDiamondTeeth · 03/12/2025 07:41

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/mango-data-privacy-policy.pdf?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails

OP posts:
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24
Clefable · 03/12/2025 12:51

And if you don’t understand how mixed sex spaces differ in dynamic, I can only assume you’ve never been in a classroom or heard young girls talking among themselves. I have girls as young as 9 talking about boys, boyfriends, and already the male gaze is rearing its head. The experience in a mixed sex space is entirely different for young girls and women, whether they realise it or not. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for one, and that already exists in Scouts. But I’ve got no interest in volunteering with boys and young men.

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:55

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 12:36

"Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman."

No male person is adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman. To suggest that any male person would even be adding their male experience to what it is to be a woman is an act of misogyny.

"I don't believe they are necessarily erasing women/girls by their presence."

Their very inclusion in any provision, that is any space, any sport, any service, any programme to address negative sex discrimination, that is there for female people does cause negative impact to those female people the provision is there to support.

"And though trans women's biology may be male (sorry to reduce it to that again, it is me this time!) their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls."

I see. So it is convenient for YOU to use the word 'male', but it is worthy of unfounded accusations when others do it. Do you see the hypocrisy in your position?

No I don't see the hypocrisy. There are occasions when, due to the debate and definition of terms, the term 'male' has to be used.

But I notice your refusal to use my child's gender identity and continue to use the sex, as if it's some sort of trump card. Which as I've said before, seems cruel to me. Would you do this to a trans person in real life?

Also - loads of male writers have created female characters that have inspired me and enriched my experience of being a woman. It's not as simple as biology. Biology Ideology! I think I'm away to get some tee shirts made up...

lifeturnsonadime · 03/12/2025 12:56

@SolidMam

I am interested by the fact that you say you will support your child if he decides to identify as a boy in the future.

How do you think the girls who have been forced to accept him in single sex spaces would feel about that if he did that?

I am also interested in your decision to allow him to live as a girl from a time that he was pre- verbal based on the way that he responded to pictures of female people in books. Do you accept that your behaviours around that have led him to identify as a girl? Do you accept that you telling him that girl guiding (a single sex space for female people) is an appropriate place for him as a male is encouraging him to believe that he has the right to be in any and all single sex spaces for female people as an adult? Do you accept that you are party to blame for the issue he is now facing by being asked to leave as, as an adult, you should have told him he had no right to be there in the first place?

TheKeatingFive · 03/12/2025 12:57

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:55

No I don't see the hypocrisy. There are occasions when, due to the debate and definition of terms, the term 'male' has to be used.

But I notice your refusal to use my child's gender identity and continue to use the sex, as if it's some sort of trump card. Which as I've said before, seems cruel to me. Would you do this to a trans person in real life?

Also - loads of male writers have created female characters that have inspired me and enriched my experience of being a woman. It's not as simple as biology. Biology Ideology! I think I'm away to get some tee shirts made up...

Why would referring to sex, when we are talking about sex based rights, be 'cruel'?

Your child's gender identity is nit relevant to whether they should have access to female single sex spaces.

ParmaVioletTea · 03/12/2025 12:57

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 09:25

Just some more on Katie Alcock. She, a psychologist, was one of the first to publicly raise the alarm about the harms of the GG policy that allowed male children to join as if they were female children.

https://medium.com/@katieja/a-year-ago-i-was-removed-from-girlguiding-d72f0e9f9692

And still GG chose to believe Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and to centre male people in Girl Guiding.

And Katie has been subject to an almost relentless attack by students to try to get her sacked.

She's one of my heroines.

ParmaVioletTea · 03/12/2025 12:58

Has Girl Guiding apologise to Katie Alcock and Helen Watts yet?

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 12:59

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:42

But I'm not lying to her - there are operations that people have all the time, whether they are accepted as women (or trans women) is the key here, I suppose. We try to have open conversations as much as we can.

And two women's deaths a week is horrendous. I found this article (from California) that does seem to suggest trans people can be subjected to high levels of harassment and violence, though of course the UK is a bit different:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-violence-harassment-ca/

Following on from my recommendation to read carefully anything from the Williams Institute, this is what is contained in those figures:

Bathroom Violence and Harassment

One in six (17%) California USTS reported experiencing some form of violence or harassment while using a public restroom in the year prior to completing the survey. Respondents who experienced bathroom violence or harassment primarily indicated being told they were using the wrong bathroom (15%), followed by 7% of respondents who indicated other types of verbal harassment, 5% who were denied access, and 1% who experienced physical violence or unwanted sexual contact.

Hoardasurass · 03/12/2025 12:59

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:10

I'm afraid it's absolutely you who is constantly reducing the debate about social interactions to sex organs, partly in your refusal to recognise my child's gender. She is a trans girl. I find that very cruel.

No I haven't asked all the other girls in her group - I would LOVE to have more open dialogue about all of this. And not have to have the discussion anonymously.

But it is very hard to do so without putting a target on my child's back, which potentially puts her and my family in danger, such is the prejudice and animosity that some people have.

I'm so worried that as she gets older and her gender (trans girl) becomes more physically apparent, she will retreat from the world, as it doesn't feel like a safe place to be. I would much rather have open conversation about all of this. Maybe one day.

In terms of safeguarding, I don't know what you mean. Do you see my trans daughter as a threat to the other girls?

Why should anyone accept your sons gender identity?
Not believing in gender identity is a protected characteristic under belief/religion. As such nobody needs to believe or respect anyone's gender identity or pander to it by calling a male she/her and insisting that people do is controlling and illegal harassment of those who are not believers in gender ideology.
There's plenty of safeguarding issues for everyone if your son shares a tent with unconsenting girls (also if they consent) as you want to talk only about your dc instead of the girls I'll spell out some of the issues for your son.
If he is present when the girls are undressing or getting changed he can be charged with voyeurism,.
if he undresses in front of the girls thats potentially indecent exposure.
if he touches any of the girls (even in a friendly way) without them knowing that hes male again potentially sexual assault.
if he has a sexual relationships in anyway without being honest about his sex thats rape/sexual assaults by deception (a young man with a trans id has just been successfully prosecuted for this crime)
and finally he is at risk of allegations of voyeurism, indecent exposure and sexual assault even if he didn't do anything because hes a male lieing about his sex to gain access to unconsenting females (I'm not saying that your dc would intentionally do any of the above but that these are the risks to your son of stelthing).
You really need to start to look at the risks for your son if he continues to lie about his sex and access female single sex spaces, facilities and groups. He needs to learn and understand that because he is male these things will never be open to him and the sooner he does so the better it will be for him in the long-term

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 12:59

ParmaVioletTea · 03/12/2025 12:57

And Katie has been subject to an almost relentless attack by students to try to get her sacked.

She's one of my heroines.

She has been a clear voice on this issue and comes at it from a psychologist perspective too.

Owlbookend · 03/12/2025 13:01

@SolidMam i just want you to know that i am empathetic to the situation that you and your child find yourself in. It must be very difficult to have your child welcomed into a group and then be told it isnt appropriate. I realise this will cause you and your child upset and sadness.
However, this problem is of GGUK's making. They shouldnt have told you that your child could join because they had a female gender identity. As I understand it, the law allows for single sex provision not single gender provision. They needed to either formally move to become a mixed sex organisation or tell parents and children in your situation that they were unable to join. They didnt make the right choices and work within the legal framework and now this is impacting on your family.

SP2024 · 03/12/2025 13:01

As a leader I really don’t actually care about whether trans people are in the organisation. I think the number must be extortionately small. I also don’t object to men being unit helpers or male children being able to accompany a leader on a holiday (if they have no childcare etc). What I DO object to is the guidelines that prevented leaders being open and honest about that with other volunteers, the children and their parents. If I have a male helper coming away I have to tell parents, provide separate sleeping and toileting facilities. They could then make a choice about participating based on all the facts. If I have a person with a penis who identifies as a woman attending I can’t tell parents that. That feels wrong to me, especially when I know some of the parents or families are strict Muslims or have experienced sexual abuse. They are trusting me with their most precious child and I’m not allowed to be honest with them. Luckily it hasn’t come up as no trans volunteers in my area but it could do. The new guidance doesn’t address this issue at all.

As a separate but related issue if I took my 7 year old son on a trip or residential I need to have a separate adult for ratios but if I had a daughter instead (or identified my son as a girl) they could be counted as a member. Make it make sense!

user1471538275 · 03/12/2025 13:07

@SolidMam

You are coming at this from a very personal point of view - with your motivation entirely to protect your own child.

It is normal to want to protect our own children and it makes us selfish to the needs of other children.

Because of your child's involvement in girlguiding, other children's needs for truth, integrity and dignity have been compromised, as has their safety.

Girls have been made to lie to be 'inclusive' of your child. Girls have been forced to accept someone who should never have been in a single sex space.

We're simply telling you it's time to stop.

If your child has dysphoria, then it is your responsibility as their parent to get help for them. It is your responsibility to manage their safety.

We are committed to ensuring safe single sex provision, where appropriate for the good of all women and girls. This requires exclusion of those who do not meet the protected characteristic of sex - clearly defined as biological sex now.

Yes, it might hurt you to have difficult conversations with your child about this, but it is necessary that you do so.

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:09

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:55

No I don't see the hypocrisy. There are occasions when, due to the debate and definition of terms, the term 'male' has to be used.

But I notice your refusal to use my child's gender identity and continue to use the sex, as if it's some sort of trump card. Which as I've said before, seems cruel to me. Would you do this to a trans person in real life?

Also - loads of male writers have created female characters that have inspired me and enriched my experience of being a woman. It's not as simple as biology. Biology Ideology! I think I'm away to get some tee shirts made up...

"Would you do this to a trans person in real life?"

I have trans people in my 'real life'. Why do you expect that people do not? Do I act as if I believe that they are the sex they say they are when they are not? No. I don't act as if I believe that. Do I use the terms male people and female people when I want to make sure I have communicated accurately? Yes. I do.

Those male writers might have created female characters that have inspired you, but your actions are your actions and they are done as a female person. So, it doesn't matter whether a male writer inspired you to act or not. It is irrelevant.

A male person saying they are acting as a female person is not contributing at all to the experience of female people. They are, however, importantly contributing to the experience of male people and enriching the experience of male people.

let's try another direction for clarity. When a male person takes the role of a Women's Officer in a university setting or a political party, because they have stated that they are female, do you consider this contributing to the needs of female people?

Do you consider this male person is shaping policy to the benefit of female people because he is "adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman."?

Because this is just one aspect of what you seem to be advocating for.

Hoardasurass · 03/12/2025 13:10

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:42

But I'm not lying to her - there are operations that people have all the time, whether they are accepted as women (or trans women) is the key here, I suppose. We try to have open conversations as much as we can.

And two women's deaths a week is horrendous. I found this article (from California) that does seem to suggest trans people can be subjected to high levels of harassment and violence, though of course the UK is a bit different:

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-violence-harassment-ca/

You do realise that transpeople consider correctly seeing them ie calling a man a man is considered abusive?
Also no transperson in the uk has been murdered solely for being trans ?
Transpeople are the safest demographic in the uk

TheKeatingFive · 03/12/2025 13:12

If I have a person with a penis who identifies as a woman attending I can’t tell parents that. That feels wrong to me, especially when I know some of the parents or families are strict Muslims or have experienced sexual abuse. They are trusting me with their most precious child and I’m not allowed to be honest with them.

This is just so shocking.

I cannot get my head around how the safeguarding of girls has been totally disregarded. It's absolutely shameful.

I'd also be concerned, as a volunteer, that I'd be opening myself up to legal action.

potpourree · 03/12/2025 13:12

SolidMam, I asked this on the other thread but it was very fast-moving. I'll ask again in the genuine spirit of wanting to understand your/your child's POV but if you can't or don't want to answer that's fine (but I'll just have to continue with my existing assumption).

Do you believe there is, in fact, anything that differentiates boys and girls?
If so, can you give one example that doesn't just say 'feeling like a boy/girl' (because that's circular)?

I have tried for a long time to work out exactly what it is people mean, or are trying to communicate, when they use the terms 'boy' / 'girl' but are not referring to sex. My conclusion is that it's gender stereotypes, but happy to be corrected.

When your child 'transitioned', what specifically is it that you think made them a girl when they were previously a boy?

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:13

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 12:25

Absolutely - as a feminist, I have a lot of time for the study you shared.

I suppose I must be a "trans inclusionary" feminist, if you like, though I don't want to get too political about that! And though trans women's biology may be male (sorry to reduce it to that again, it is me this time!) their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls. And so they can and should be included as such, where appropriate.

I don't believe they are necessarily erasing women/girls by their presence. Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman.

Took ages on the below, and see the thread's run away with me - apologies to the new conversations I'm now interrupting and any subsequent posts addressing these points already, better than I do.

So...

Thanks. Interesting reply. The thing is, there are some things in it that I do think, again (with apologies for being somewhat direct) come from a rather superficial understanding of a hugely complex issue - and perhaps also activist talking points. I used to think the much same, but have read and seen so much since that I've now, regrettably, come to realise how much I was missing back then.

their lived experience and social reality probably has much more in common with women and girls

Potentially trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman

I'd question this from a number of perspectives.

Firstly, biology is relevant to our argument - if not as "fundamentally"(!) central as some activists would have us believe! Eg. Consider this WI group being set up to compensate for TW no longer being members, to discuss "experiences of what it is to be a woman", or suchlike. Honestly, the only times I actually think of myself as being a woman rather than, simply, a human or an individual, tend to relate to what distinguishes me from the male sex class: certain functions, discrimination against me on the basis of the type of body I have and women's historical oppression, my proportionate physical vulnerability etc. Please note, this isn't about "sex organs", but, instead, the practical realities of being female in a world designed for males, up to and including not having a hope in hell of getting Grade 8 piano because of male-default keyboards (still resentful) or being able to bloody reach the microwave in my own flat or office (crazy!), or feeling able to challenge the male taxi drivers who ask if I'm married or try to bully me into paying extra, knowing I'm too small to oppose them and will leave the cab conscious that they know where I live. I'm honestly not sure how transwomen's "lived experience and social reality" aligns with this. This isn't to (popular "gotcha") present myself as a victim, any more than than a Black person discussing their experience of racism would be. In fact, in a world in which racist verbal micro-aggression are utter anathema, it astonishes me that women have to make this pre-emptive defence when describing the challenges they face!

Secondly, I think it's really important to recognise that "transwomen" is a wide-ranging umbrella term. This was very difficult for me to accept at first, as it isn't the popular media narrative and is very difficult to discuss in this context especially, involving, as it does, some unpleasant reading and corners of the internet. It's summed up very well in another MN thread called something like, "Where do people think all the transvestites have gone?" This group, previously accepted unquestioningly as, at best, a humiliating imitation of what it means to be female, and at worst, a potential risk to women and girls, has been subsumed into the trans umbrella. For them, it's not about dysphoria, but sexual fetish - and there are clearly many of them. Their own accounts are particularly interesting to read (eg. Debbie Hayton), if sometimes somewhat sexually explicit (google Andrea Long Chu, who may or may not fall into this group, whose description of what "she" thinks it means to be a woman certainly corresponds to aspects of this, and see if you can stomach this - "enriching" for us it ain't!) Looking at such men's reams of photos is rather less advisable! I honestly find it hard to put into words how viscerally distressing I find the suggestion that the "lived experience and social reality" of a man who identifies as trans for this reason in any way reflects my own.

This then leads us to another, different group - the deeply dysphoric, like your son. Here, things are much more complex, and I've a huge amount of sympathy for such individuals, particularly today, in fact, as they find out that organisations that unlawfully welcomed them for years are now ejecting them. I know quite a few currently trans-identifying children (I phrase that carefully, given desistance rates) and it distresses me to think how their needs have been misrepresented and undermined by an unthinking ideology that, in its authoritarian bent, demanded the impossible and unreasonable of women and girls in their name, and has, ironically, thereby done them lasting damage. A more open, democratic approach (google eg. "the Dentons document") could have avoided or mitigated what your child is currently experiencing. But even then, I truly don't see what this group has in common with me. Logically - and evidentially - their main (only?) way to signify their internal trans identity is by adopting external behaviours and features stereotypically or commonly associated with girls and women (whether joining Guides, or wearing a dress, or undergoing hormonal or cosmetic changes). And I don't want women - me - to be associated with any external behaviours and features, or classified according to these! And I do want us to retain the option of single-sex groups, for the reasons I give above. There are also some males in this group who take this approach to such an extreme (google Dylan Mulvaney) that they make your concept that "trans people are adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman" downright offensive to me.

Then, there's the issue of transmen and non binary individuals. Statistics indicate fairly clearly, to my mind, that a good proportion of girls, particular autistic and lesbian girls, are embracing these identities as they see "woman" and "female" become crushingly associated with external, often sexualised, appearance - in part because of the the umbrella term "transwomen" and all it entails, and for a thousand and one other depressing reasons (including the proliferation of porn, which factors into all this in the most disturbing of ways - Jo Bartosch is good on this). I want "woman" to be, simply, a practical and necessary descriptor that is 99.9% accurate in capturing a demographic of humans with particular needs... and is otherwise utterly irrelevant to who they are - to what they wear, or how they behave, what they can do etc.

As long as transwomen continue to dilute who and what women are, and women's rights - and society's understanding of the most fundamental, essential aspects of this - in a way that I feel risks reducing women to something external and wholly unrelated to (indeed, that is damaging to) our demographic, I will continue to speak out in a way that some may mistakenly interpret as anti-trans... but that is, quite simply, pro-woman.

Basically, all I ask is that our identity is validated, too, as distinct and worthwhile, and that it's not forcibly subsumed into something so different, so complex and, sometimes, so very starkly in opposition to our needs. Think of these trigger-warnings the BBC is giving before hosting a speaker who may misgender a transwoman! In some parallel universe somewhere, where women are valued in their own right, another BBC is giving a trigger warning to women each time they call a male "she", "woman" or "female", in recognition of how utterly unethical it is to redefine a whole portion of humanity according to the internal self-perception of the portion that has oppressed them for millennia. I mean, marital rape (woman-as-secondary-to-or-extension-of-husband) was outlawed only a few decades ago in the UK! We're not a part of males, subject to and shaped by their minds and wills.

Or at any rate, we shouldn't be.

PullingOutHair123 · 03/12/2025 13:14

SP2024 · 03/12/2025 13:01

As a leader I really don’t actually care about whether trans people are in the organisation. I think the number must be extortionately small. I also don’t object to men being unit helpers or male children being able to accompany a leader on a holiday (if they have no childcare etc). What I DO object to is the guidelines that prevented leaders being open and honest about that with other volunteers, the children and their parents. If I have a male helper coming away I have to tell parents, provide separate sleeping and toileting facilities. They could then make a choice about participating based on all the facts. If I have a person with a penis who identifies as a woman attending I can’t tell parents that. That feels wrong to me, especially when I know some of the parents or families are strict Muslims or have experienced sexual abuse. They are trusting me with their most precious child and I’m not allowed to be honest with them. Luckily it hasn’t come up as no trans volunteers in my area but it could do. The new guidance doesn’t address this issue at all.

As a separate but related issue if I took my 7 year old son on a trip or residential I need to have a separate adult for ratios but if I had a daughter instead (or identified my son as a girl) they could be counted as a member. Make it make sense!

Exactly. This is my issue with the GG stance. Why are they pretending boys are girls? This is outright fantasy, and ignores basic facts.

People keep bringing up Scouting. The difference is that Scouting is not single sex, doesn't pretend to be, and has policies in place for having 2 sexes within the group. Facilities are provided for both sexes etc.

GG have just said we are single sex, we accept boys that say they are girls, and as they are girls, we do not need to change anything. It is fantasy land.

I am just glad they have u-turned before there was a safeguarding incident. Assuming there hasn't been one.

FancyCatSlave · 03/12/2025 13:16

I still won’t be sending DD to GG, the whole organisation gives me the creeps. Their stance on this is abhorrent. I got cold shouldered in our small village because one of the prominent village residents is the local Brown Owl and I made it quite clear at the time that I disagreed with the GG policies on gender and “inclusivity”.

DD is your classic “tomboy” and we’re on the waitlist for Beavers where I feel she we will have a genuinely good experience. She’s not a boy, she isn’t confused, she just prefers less traditionally “girly” things and prefers the company of boys who like dinosaurs and mud and roaring rather than pink and unicorns and fluff. There’s very little risk in our traditional rural community of coming across any actual trans nonsense (the pub doesn’t even cater for vegans, it’s a very non woke part of the world) but it’s the principle of the thing for me. GG aren’t sorry, they are sorry they have been caught 🤮

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 12:48

And you declaring people who don't use the language you demand as cruel is the very definition of 'polarisation of the debate'.

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

BundleBoogie · 03/12/2025 13:21

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 10:27

I'm not asking for "cheques from society", all I'm asking for is understanding.

I saw a trans woman on public transport the other day, I observed a lot of staring at "the other". It felt slightly threatening. I hope it'll be different for my child when she comes of age, if her gender remains as it is.

My child consistently, persistently and insistently asserted herself as girl, often to the point of great distress. She constantly corrected us. We pushed back but she persisted. This occurred for over a year before her 'social' transition. Please don't make assumptions that we guided her to this.

She may well be autistic, we are on the list for a referral (years now). To my mind this is just another part of the puzzle, the brilliant unique person that she is, not a simple explanation to dismiss her 'gender dysphoria'.

Because she isn't - at the moment - dysphoric (ie: unhappy). She seems happy in her body and who she is, though this decision is the probably the first of many societal knocks.

She knows what her sex is, she knows what her gender is. Her existence isn't the problem but she is being made to feel that it is. That's why I mentioned the suicide rates earlier - I have spent much of my adult life battling quite severe mental illness. In supporting in her, in making her feel safe and listened to - at home and in our community - I hope she can have an easier path than the many trans people before her who have been ostracised by society.

(Sidenote - if anyone has links that debunk the widely quoted 30-50% suicide attempt statistic for trans people, I'd be very interested to read. It's hard to get reliable statistics on suicide, much less on a marginalised community.)

It's not an easy path, far from it. I suppose we don't always get to choose our paths through life.

I probably won't post much more today as I need to get on with work but I hope you all have a good day, thanks for the discussion.

She seems happy in her body and who she is, though this decision is the probably the first of many societal knocks.
She knows what her sex is, she knows what her gender is. Her existence isn't the problem but she is being made to feel that it is.

So your child knows he is male and is happy in his body. That is very good news. I hope you don’t mind but I need to use male pronouns to refer to a boy for various reasons. It is not intended as disrespect. It is not clear from your posts what age he is.

I guess the big questions are -

what do you mean by ‘gender’?
what does he mean by ‘girl’?
does his understanding of ‘girl’ match yours? (I’m guessing not as you know he is male therefore a boy and he is a child who may have category confusion)
if you have confirmed to him (and everyone who meets him) that he is a ‘girl’ for all purposes, how do you think that will go when he is confronted with something that irrefutably demonstrates his sex, like puberty for example?

I saw a trans woman on public transport the other day, I observed a lot of staring at "the other". It felt slightly threatening. I hope it'll be different for my child when she comes of age, if her gender remains as it is.

If a man is out in public obviously trying to look like a woman, he is ‘other’ and will inevitably attract stares. He may be dressed like that because of a sexual fetish (many are) and he may get upset or aggressive when denied entry to women’s spaces. I know that men trying to look like women do make normal men uncomfortable at a deep level and obviously many women who may face a battle with him.

That is not going to change unless the trans lobby admit they were wrong and that riding roughshod over everyone’s rights for a tiny minority of men is not working. They need to change tack and work towards trans people genuinely fitting into society without impinging on everyone else.

Catiette · 03/12/2025 13:22

ETA: in response to Solid, 2 posts above.

The problem is, I could similarly sum up my massive post above as:

"I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect our sex. In my view, the erasure of women is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language."

Helleofabore · 03/12/2025 13:22

Catiette mentioned Andrea Long Chu

https://x.com/LadyNorvician/status/1878385479436935448/photo/1

Here is a selection of male people who are obviously "adding to and enriching the experience of what it is to be a woman."

"AUTOGYNEPHILIA DESCRIBES NOT AN OBSCURE PARAPHILIC AFFLICTION BUT RATHER THE BASIC STRUCTURE OF ALL HUMAN SEXUALITY. THE ASSIMILATION OF ANY EROTIC IMAGE IS, BY NATURE,
FEMALE.

TO BE FEMALE IS, IN EVERY CASE TO BECOME WHAT SOMEONE ELSE WANTS. AT BOTTOM, THE ASSHOLE [IS] A UNIVERSAL VAGINA THROUGH WHICH FEMALENESS CAN ALWAYS BE ACCESSED."

ANDREA LONG CHU
TRANS-IDENTIFYING
ACADEMIC AND AUTHOR

and

"PORNOGRAPHY IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE WHEN YOU THINK YOU HAVE AN OBJECT, BUT REALLY THE OBJECT HAS YOU. IT IS THEREFORE A
QUINTESSENTIAL EXPRESSION OF FEMALENESS.

GETTING FUCKED MAKES YOU FEMALE BECAUSE FUCKED IS WHAT A FEMALE IS."

ANDREA LONG CHU
TRANS-IDENTIFYING
ACADEMIC AND AUTHOR

TheKeatingFive · 03/12/2025 13:23

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

Your child's 'gender identity' is a metaphysical belief. It has no factual basis, just like a religion.

No one is under any obligation to agree that it's of any consequence to this debate or lie about how they see you child to you.

BundleBoogie · 03/12/2025 13:23

SolidMam · 03/12/2025 13:19

I don't demand anything. I'm simply asking you to respect her gender.

In my view, the erasure of trans people is a huge problem and that erasure starts with language.

What do you mean by ‘gender’?

If we don’t believe that ‘gender’ is a thing and that it certainly doesn’t overwrite sex in relevant scenarios - what should we do? Can you respect our views?