To think that people who admire Dubai's low crime rate often miss the fact that it's partly due to nearly 90% of the population being temporary workers?

[Carla786]

Some people might remember a week or so ago on AIBU there was a thread about whether the OP should move to Dubai. Many posts praised the low crime rate & compared it favourably to UK.

I was critical of this for several reasons. Checking facts later, I realised that nearly 90% of Dubai residents are Expat workers or migrants who've held in a restrictive system (the kafala system has been strongly criticised for being essentially indentured servitude, and there have been reforms but it still seems concerning).

It's unsurprising crime, especially violent crime, would be low when most people are either temporary expats or people who've likewise been sourced specifically to come and work (and are held in a punitive system), and whose families often depend on the remittances they're sending back.

Obviously the harsh criminal code in Dubai (though there have again been some recent reforms) plays a role, but the population makeup alone makes comments on Dubai's superior morality/crime control etc very questionable.

I myself think policing and crime need serious reforms in the UK but people comparing it to Dubai favourably are comparing apples to authoritarian oranges.

Exactly. There’s something frighteningly obtuse (if not callous) about expat families who enjoy having a nice, cheap nanny to care for their kids while knowing that the nanny has had to leave her own children thousands of miles away in her own country.

People have been saying ‘the UK is in total decline’ since I was a child in the 1970s. Funnily enough we’re all still here, still living in a democracy, still able to criticise the government without being chucked into prison and forgotten, most of us have enough to eat, the right to a fair, open trial, access to healthcare and some sort of housing. Massive problems exist of course, but compared to totalitarian states we’re doing ok.

It’s harsh policing, lots of middle income types as well, it’s not just extreme wealth and then extreme poverty.

Tbh I think we could do with some harsh policing as well.

It’s because their own countries are unable to give them the opportunity to earn. The alternative is families in places like the phillipines often being more impoverished than they otherwise would have been. That doesn’t mean expats shoud take the piss, you have to live with yourself and you should ensure that anyone you employ is provided with a decent wage. Moving somewhere like Dubai can mean a massive difference to families from low income countries. The remittances are massive.

You wouldn't go there. So presumably you havent been there?

The immigrants are either highly skilled and paid, or basically slaves who will be quietly killed if they commit crime; you want that for the UK? The first bit, maybe.

I assumed that was tongue in cheek!

Given the views of many on here, I didn't!

I agree with that: the injustice is if the workers are not paid a decent wage.

I can see why you're worried....however I think it's unlikely changing the Act of Settlement will be a priority. You post sounds like you think Keir Starmer wants some kind of caliphate. His wife & kids are Jewish - is this really likely?

As to Islam as 'a way of life with rules and cruel punishments' - I think this overlooks the key issue.

The Old Testament mandates the death penalty by stoning for a variety of crimes. Hindu scriptures contain brutal punishments for shudras (lower castes) for things from reciting the Vedas to sex with a higher caste woman. To their credit, faiths like Sikhism and Buddhism don't have such harsh punishments. But it's fallacious to say such things are unique to Islam.

The real problem with Islam is that far too many Muslims want to adhere to fundamentalist versions of the law. Hindus don't generally demand that abroad (though there are still atrocities against lower-caste people in India) and only a fringe minority of Jews & Christians want OT law restored (and those types are mostly in the US).

Give it time.... We don't take the punishments in the Old Testament as Christians. Christ came to tell us that God doesn't do that. He taught of a 'Father' - a 'daddy' if you will, who is a God of love. The problems of that time was that because of Roman rule, the Pharisees, always quarreling with the Sadducees had imposed such harsh rules on the people that Jesus came to change all that.

The problem with islam is also that the terrorist jihadist groups want power themselves and get it by convincing people that if the rules of islam are tightened up and they obey them to the letter, they will be more likely to go to paradise, so there are islamic communities who are controlled so severely the faith of their ancestors bears no resemblance to what is happening now.

They want to be large cogs in a small wheel rather than a small cog in a large wheel, if you get my drift.

If ordinary muslims were to point out the bad apples, the world would be a more peaceful place.

I also think they have a chip on their shoulder about what St Paul said in one of his letters - sort of denigrating Ishmael because he was born on the wrong side of the blanket and was not therefore a true heir of Abraham. Perhaps I am wrong, but islam was set up to oppose the early Christian religion, which had grown considerably in the 500 years since Christ's resurrection. We have moved forward. We do not tie communities down to the extent Paul had to. He had to set an example so that the Christians didn't get a bad name. We live in a different age and time, but islam seems to be moving backwards.

To have a faith you have to have a relationship with your God - a one to one contract, really. Christians come together with like minded people to sing, pray and listen to bible explanations. Jesus said ''When you pray, don't make a spectacle of yourself in public, in the street, so that everyone thinks you are more devout. Go to your room alone and ask God what you want. God knows what you need, and your heavenly father who hears you in secret will reward you''. I always think that is a comfort to the blind, deaf and dumb and the housebound who cannot get to church.

It is a shame, really that islam is so keen to control the world that some jihadists jump the gun and act on their own, with disastrous results.

I know that Christians don't take the OT punishments as things we should do now as the NT supercedes, I should have clarified.

The harsh punishments in Hindu and Jewish scriptures have never been superceded though. My point was that they've never been repealed but the members of those religions have just quietly decided that they are not appropriate for modern life. Hinduism had reform movements like the 19th century Brahmo Samaj, Judaism had the Reform movement. Islam needs something similar. Unfortunately the faith has gone from sufism, lax Ottoman empire rules etc to fundamentalism becoming more resurgent since the 18th century with Salafi & Wahhabi movements.

I don't really see how it's useful in practical terms to say that 'Islam is not a faith but a way of life with rules and cruel punishments' etc

For better or worse, Islam has a huge number of followers, and is increasing. I don't think the most practical way to get people to be moderate is to say the religion is bad and they should give it up. Arguably that can easily feed into a siege mentality which fundamentalists use to argue that their religion is under threat (as has been observed with other fundamentalist religious groups)

Whatever one's opinion of Islam, it's fair to say that ultraconservative Kashmiri Mirpurs & similar (who unfortunately form a larger amount of the community here) are the only option unless someone gives up the faith.

If you look at for example the Hui and Uyghur Muslims in China, in common with some other Asian Muslim groups, their faith is Sufi and Buddhist-influenced, so generally peaceful and community-focused. Another example would be the European-influenced Bosnian and Albanian Muslims, they're in general peaceful and moderate. Another category would be the limbo the oily states are in between modernisation and strict Islamic law : Bahrain, Qatar, etc in a sense also Turkey. North Africa is similar : Morocco has banned the burqa and education & work for women are increasing, but there's a lot of progress needed on religious tolerance etc.

The main point is that I sometimes see comments here saying an MP or similar is 'not a real Muslim' if they're more socially liberal, and ironically it seems similar in a sense to the policing of more liberal Muslims by fundamentalists. It's unrealistic to expect Islam to go away, the only way to improve the situation is to encourage sensible Muslims. The kind of stand being taken by people like Sajid Javid (eg he raised the marriage age to 18 to hinder forced marriage), Shabana Mahmood and Reform's Laila Cunningham is very welcome and hopefully will end up being the norm one day. Urban Pakistanis sees UK self-segregating Bradford types as living in an outdated way of life.

Some agreement. It is such a difficult debate. I listened to a programme just now about the problem in sharia law countries. I think we get a clearer picture of Islam if we study the social history and present day of countries which are completely sharia.

Some will tolerate Christians, but only up to a point.. I remember the case of an elderly man in Saudi who was imprisoned and flogged because he was stopped and found to have wine.

Parents can practice their Christianity, but they cannot teach their children. That is so significant. They can be imprisoned just for teaching their children about their faith. That is because there is no tolerance of other religions in sharia law.

If muslims disobey the law, they are punished severely. Early this year (might have been late last year) the Taliban announced that the flogging and stoning of women who did not follow the dress code or other minor misdemeanors was in an arena outside and the public attended. For my part, that is shocking, and akin to human sacrifice. Eventually, by not allowing women to be educated and not allowing them to absorb the health giving rays of the son (even windows are banned) the race will eventually die out in just very few generations.

The mums on here must surely oppose that extreme. For the Taliban to say that they do not allow women to work or study is because you don't know when they are 'unclean' is a nonsense. because the post menopause women are not allowed to work or study either.

The difference with Christianity is faith. There is no coercion, no enforcing the law of Jesus. The only punishment is not to have a place in Jesus's heaven. Jesus said ''Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, will enter my kingdom but only those who do the will of my father, which I have taught you.''

Even then God is forgiving. We have to try, be sorry for our mistakes. There is no where in Christianity today which punishes, unless under the laws of the country we live in. There are orders of service, prayer books, programmes of when hymns are sung and so on. Going to church is not something that would alienate us from Christ. Christ advocated praying alone. He also said ''where one or two are gathered together in his name, God will hear them''. It doesn't eliminate the lone prayers.

If we follow His way, the teachings, then we stand a chance of a place in heaven with like minded people, our parents and friends, relatives. It is incumbent on us to vow to Jesus that we will endeavour to follow his teachings. He came to earth, died a violent death in public, and rose again, to prove to us that there is another life after this. It is true.

We, as individuals, are bound by our love of God, Jesus, and the spiritual help we get through the Holy Spirit. Why Christians are not allowed to practice their religion openly is something I have never understood. It is a spiritual contract. It is up to us to choose.

Jesus said ''In my father's house are many mansions - rooms, if you will. Along with other Christians, I believe that those mansions could be for others who do not aspire to the Heaven and the nature of God as Jesus described. I have heard Christians say that there is no afterlife unless you follow Jesus, but we don't know that for sure, do we? There is another life after this. If the spirit can leave the body while it is viable, it will most certainly leave it when it is dead.

We strive to be included with Jesus. We have to do that for ourselves and not judge other religions. It is a faith, a contract between the follower and Jesus. I wish that was more widely talked about.

One thing I always find particularly ironic about people who praise Dubai and denigrate UK is that they ignore the fundamentalist Muslim beliefs Dubai promotes are the same ones causing serious issues in some UK immigrant communities.

The only difference is that Dubai only applies sharia laws to the 10% Emirati Muslim part of its population. But does that make Dubai morally better?

I think there are perhaps different kinds of muslims - those in authority at work or wherever, who more or less do what they like because the underlings are too afraid to comment, and the also runs, those at the bottom of the pile who ''know their place'' and do whatever their ''betters'' tell them.

I think that is possibly why they are always at war. You get someone who is 'in the middle' and who wants to be higher up, so he starts his own version of islam - like the fundamentalist groups - and work to persuade followers that they have a message from god who tells them they must be stricter, and if you convince enough lower down the pecking order that they will be good muslims if they mend their ways and become more devout (brain washed), you can pretty quickly gather enough idiots to have an army - and another isis, boko haram, hamas and uncle tom cobbley and all and before long they have another islam.

In the meantime, people suffer.

Well, you will get swiftly jailed and then deported, the incentives are no longer there unless you are really stupid. CCTV cameras everywhere too…better believe they are working too.

it’s not as if this worker would go back to their home country. more than likely they would just go into the service sector, so hospitality, F&B, cleaning services.

some places really are that poor. And they aren’t going to unfuck themselves anytime soon.

It has its issues when you scratch below the surface. It did when I was there. You also have to look at things like the working demographic and zero tolerance to drugs. No county lines there for kids to get wrapped up in. No knives openly on the streets. Education system it’s good. SEND is well catered for in school which is good for life opportunities. We have a friend who won’t bring their autistic son back here. To live there you have to work or you have to leave and nobody is entitled to their visa. You are always a temporary resident sponsored by a company so keep the mane respectable. TBH I had a great time there after a bad period in my life. Theres a lot at steak so you have to be good.

Are you talking about the illegal wars that were imposed on them from the west? The ones that killed a million that no one talks about?

I don’t know what documentary you watched but you got a lot of stuff wrong. They are praying in congregation. Following someone who leads the prayer.
Men have to go to the mosque for women it’s optional. Men get less reward if they pray at home, it’s also sinful for men to miss Friday congregation, women get the same as a man praying in the mosque whenever she prays. Prayer is very deep. When I’m praying I’m not just going through the motions and chanting, which I think is offensive to say.
Also they don’t believe that the earth was created for men and that women never feel the sun. You have no clue what goes on inside a Muslims home, where they travel, how they live their life.

It doesn’t change the bottom line fact that the crime rate is low though does it.

It depends what you mean by ‘crime’. Tourists are highly unlikely to be mugged or pickpocketed, if that’s what you mean.

However, FGM, while a ban on it in government-run hospitals was introduced fairly recently, is legal and widely practised among Emiratis and foreigners who fly their daughters into the UAE to have it done, usually in a medical setting.

There is a high risk of a terrorist attack. Militants have frequently used UAE based businesses to fund terrorist organisations like the Taliban, the Haqqani and AlQuaeda, and attacks, including 9/11 and the Mumbai terrorist attacks. Three years ago there was a Houthi terrorist attack using drones and ballistic misfiles near Abu Dhabi airport, causing civilian deaths.

White collar crime is huge. It’s a centre for money laundering and cybercrime.

If you fail to pay a bill, including a hotel bill, you can legally be imprisoned until the debt is cleared.

If you are a woman who is raped, you will face an enormous job trying to prove the sex was not consensual, especially if you’d consumed alcohol.

If you report a crime or come to the attention of the police for any reason, including being the victim of a crime, and had consumed alcohol, you can be charged with public drunkenness.

Same-sex relationships are illegal, so while discreet stuff does go on, if the guy you met on Grindr beats you up, robs or blackmails you (and this happens, precisely because of the legal situation), you can’t go to the police.

In Sharjah, drinking or having alcohol in your possession is illegal.

Having residual amounts of a substance that is illegal in the UAE but is legal elsewhere (many over the counter medications, CBD oil) counts as drug possession and is a criminal offence.

Again, it depends what you mean by crime.

If you are a woman who is raped, you will face an enormous job trying to prove the sex was not consensual, especially if you’d consumed alcohol.
If you report a crime or come to the attention of the police for any reason, including being the victim of a crime, and had consumed alcohol, you can be charged with public drunkenness.
Same-sex relationships
Also if you are a foreigner and the person you are accusing is Emirati you will be the one in trouble. Because of this you can also be falsely accused of crimes if you piss one of them off.

Yes, exactly. It’s a minor matter but I remember my first week in Dubai going to a film in Jebel Ali, and watching an Emirati couple skip the sizeable queue, unchallenged by staff or anyone else in the queue. Similarly friends not disputing car crashes where an Emirati had been driving dangerously, which was not an infrequent occurrence, especially when you had boy racers speeding on the Dubai-Abu Dhabi road.