To think my mum has fallen down a conspiracy rabbit hole and I can't get her out

[Coffeesoon]

My mum has just sent me a video of Ant Middleton explaining how in 2027 the migrants / boat people who are seeking asylum and have already been made legal, will kick off and attack us all.
He says there will be a civil war, he knows because of army contacts and that we need to prepare.
What am I suppose to say to that?
She fully believes that an army is being formed and is constantly telling me or sending me videos about it.
I love my mum but since covid, which she thought wasn't real, she has been thinking the government is out to get us. We live in an area of increased immigrants and she absolutely hates them.
I've tried to talk to her but shes adamant and its really getting me down.

You seem to have a fixed view that there's this single monolith of "people with anti-immigration views" but there are several viewpoints on this that may fit your criteria for this, only some of which may conform to the stereotype you're positing. The same is true of multiple issues in society.

For example, yes, there are indeed a great many people in our society who are basically just racist and will jump gleefully on the 'immigration' issue because of that. They were there back in the NF days, they morphed to the BNP and the EDL. I grew up in an area that had a lot of that.

But not everyone who talks about the issue of immigration as it is now is going to be one of that group. So how would you persuade THOSE people who aren't? As I don't think you can assume that they are 'just blinded by feelings' in the same way as the above groups as you claim. Are you claiming they secretly are so you can just ignore them?

I've no idea. Nevertheless, the poster didn't say, 'Oh thank goodness. It would be awful to live in the rape capital of the world - thank you for pointing out that this dataset shouldn't be used in this way. I'll sleep better now - in fact, it's reassuring that women have greater protections in the UK against a broader range of rape incidents'.

She responded with snark, presumably because she'd rather believe the lie - comforting, because people just do not like being presented with evidence that runs counter to their biases. We don't LIKE being cognitively challenged. And when we're really angry and passionate about something, when it's become part of our core belief system, we are comforted by information that reinforces it, and confronted by evidence that runs counter to it.

Wow, that's cynical. So the truth doesn't matter to you? You don't think there's any point in evidence?

Sure, maybe the poster you're responding to isn't interested. But haven't you ever understood that one of the points of debate is not to convince your opposition, but to get closer to the actual truth? And another point is to connect with people in the audience - readers, listeners - who may be more open to changing their minds?

I'm surprised that someone so 'intellectual' and with such unprecedented access to the truth is unaware of the importance of sharing and understanding facts and evidence, of being able to make convincing arguments backed up with evidence, and of having respect for your opposition.

"Thinking properly"?

Why are you assuming that you are the only person who has the capability of doing this? Fucking hell. You are a massive part of the problem. You are NOT helping.

I would say the split on the EU vote at almost 50: 50 and the conservative/reform who are on the side of leaving the EHRC versus lab/lib/greens who are pro more immigration, split in polling at 50 50, and this is definitely a country of two halves.

And look at these threads. There's no common ground at all. Even within families. They devolve into insults every time. Contempt and vilification.

You call half the voters "a few voices backed up by people outside the UK"

Strange that "voices" outside the UK are the problem but the second any "voice" arrives here there's no evidence they are unsafe.

There is no consistency in the left's arguments.

Iran and Afghanistan were not always Islamic countries.

Iran was once a very progressive country. In 1979, the Left, who seemed, from what I've read, had sympathies with communism and wanted to overthrow the regime at the time, so they allied themselves with the Islamists who desired the same goal.

It is now called the "Unholy Alliance."

In 1979, the alliance was successful at overthrowing the regime and installed the Islamic Ayatollah. Once that happened, the mask slipped from the Islamists as they had no use for their useful idiots any longer and they made, how you say, quick work of their "allies."

And that is a brief rundown of how Iran got itself into the state that it is today and is actually what the book "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood is based on.

The more you know.

And everything else ignored, instead zoning in on pedantry.

Thought as much. Come on, 'expert', show us how it's done.

Uh-huh. What am I 'ignoring' exactly, oh great one? The topic is methods of arguing. All you've done is post snark.

This thread is about a conspiracy theorist, and the posters I am taking umbrage with are the ones passionately spreading total horseshit - or defending the spreading of it - without being remotely interested in facts, while posturing that they are the rigorous intellects because they will consider any and every view, without applying any critical lens to its source.

If they would just - please - check some facts at source of data, there wouldn't be a problem with anyone holding anti-immigration views, because you could have a sensible conversation without the layer of open racism, wilful misunderstanding of facts, and emotional response to information that challenges their views.

I don't need to 'persuade' anyone else. I have no problem with anyone holding anti-immigration views based on robust evidence, or even personal experience. I'm not God - they can believe what they want.

I have a MASSIVE problem with the shit that's been posted on this thread tonight, because it's setting the tone of the conversation in the gutter.

We DO need to have honest conversations about immigration.

It won't happen until we all agree to be honest.

As I recall (without scrolling back for pages) she said that she understood that there are different ways of identifying rape in different countries, but it was nonetheless a frightening statistic that shows an increase in rapes in the UK. It doesn't exactly put your mind at ease to consider that we're not the worst in the world, we're only the worst among the countries that are actually counting. And it doesn't take away from the point that there's a correlation with increased immigration into the UK (from countries who don't count rape as rape so much as we do.)

The rest of the post and the points made.
And by the way, snark, yes. Not done bad yourself on that front, as well as a hell of a lot of lording it over in a self-important manner and zoning in on pedantry. Amusingly, you're not as good at conversing as you think you are.

Still waiting for you to show us how it's done, being a fellow 'lefty' and all.

It's interesting that because I don't subscribe to the all immigrants are rapists, murderers and part of an army come to attack the country, that you see me as leftist. You missed looney by the way.
You have ascribed me to a group of people with little to no information about me, and voiced your (incorrect) assumption as fact.

You have made a judgement with no evidence. That says an awful lot to me about your questioning and reasoning skills.

You also ascribed the word hate to voting intentions. I would say this this is your bias, not fact. You may have cast your vote in hatred, I haven't met anyone else who had that feeling about the process, and I would caution against espousing your feelings as fact.

Thought that be the case. Thanks, amused me no end.
All bite, no substance.

You haven't made any points.

That is absolutely NOT what the poster said, and is misleading and an example of misinformation.

Yes, I know what the thread is about. So which exactly are the particular "total horseshit" views being spread you wish to discuss and refute? Lots of views have been given across this thread, and seem from what I'm seeing to have varying opinions, rather than a single monolithic perspective. So if you could focus on what "total horseshit" claims have been made (or you think have been made) instead of broad-sweeping it, it is likely to be more productive.

I think you need to lean on that point of connection. That the system isn't working.

I know it's difficult, but this is your own mother. All the people advising you cut her off or sneer at her every time she "starts", don't have a personal relationship with her. The only way to bring her back from the edge of going full conspiracy theory, is not to back her into a corner where it becomes a point of pride not to ever change her mind. You need to do the opposite. Keep the door open. And that starts with making her feel heard.

She's fixated on this because she's frustrated by the current state of the country and scared for the future. And she's not wrong to feel like that. Instead of challenging her at every turn, and making her feel judged, try to keep things neutral. Validate the basic concerns she has, but stay quite calm and indifferent to anything really out there she might come out with.

"I'm not sure about that", "I've heard a few different perspectives on that, I'm still working out what I think about it". That's how you want to be. Not telling her she's stupid or pushing her into any strong emotional reaction. And not patronising her like she's a child, because she will pick up on that. You want to create a space where she can explore ideas, but she can also change her mind. If you play it right, she might drop some of the more fringe conspiracies of her own accord.

If you can find voices who are a bit more nuanced and calm in their delivery, maybe steer her to them, and away from shock jock, algorithm-chasing content. And try to get her into something else, if you can. A lot of this is probably boredom. Does she have any hobbies she's let fall by the wayside a bit? You want to break her out of the fear loop she's stuck in and put some more positivity back in her life.

Still waiting for you to stop with the ad-homs, actually, but nice try.

You posted a sky news article describing bad actors driving right wing anti immigrant sentiment.

That was definitely a left wing posting decision you made. Feel free to deny it.

Sorry apologies, not for you my post.

Look at the posts I have replied to. I'm not summarising again.

Still waiting to see your expertise.

So here's what seems to be the 'argument' from the 'lefties':

"I have lots of great arguments and undeniable facts. I'm a brilliant critical thinker and I am excellent at debunking conspiracy theories. I know I'm right because I have a lot of evidence. What's more, I understand exactly what my opposition thinks and I'm familiar with every point they make and I have fantastic counterpoints to make, backed up with solid evidence. But I'm not going to share any of the facts, evidence, or arguments here when invited to do so. I'm just going to call everyone who disagrees with me stupid and racist. That'll do."

I'm sorry, but I honestly believe that if you think your ideas are good, you have the confidence to express them. If you are genuinely good at presenting counterpoints to arguments, it's because you understand the opposing arguments deeply. And you certainly wouldn't let your opposition put their arguments reasonably and clearly on a thread like this without taking them apart, one by one, so no one could be left in any doubt that there is, at the very least, an equally valid counterargument that should shake their certainties.

It's not just this thread, but every thread where the established 'left' narrative is challenged in any way. Maybe lefties just got too comfortable having everything on their side, and forgot that they have to actually argue for their views, rather than enforce them through censorship, cancellation, and violence.

So now we have lies and misinformation. I've posted no links, but don't let that fact stop you.

We are on a thread where posters are repeating things with no factual basis claiming that they don't. So thank you for showing the lack of fact finding that goes hand in hand with anti refugees sentiment.

You also ascribed the word hate to voting intentions. I would say this this is your bias, not fact. You may have cast your vote in hatred, I haven't met anyone else who had that feeling about the process, and I would caution against espousing your feelings as fact.

I haven't ascribed it to voting intentions.

The hatred is between the two groups of people on the basis of their diametrically opposed beliefs, ie leave or remain, leave the EHRC or not.

It's extremely persistent.