To think all schools should teach children the old traditional hymns

[Staringintothevoid616]

Just switching between channels and Songs of Praise came on. It was a run down of the most popular school hymns.complete with recorders It brought back many memories and how important communal singing is. It doesn’t matter what your religion is, everyone should know the most popular hymns as a way of uniting society.

So basically being hypocrites and picking out the religious bits we like and the ones that suit us. I hear you.

I've always thought part of the appeal of big football matches (and darts etc) is all the singing, and stadium concerts

It's not the hymn that crosses the line.
It's the suggestion it should be compulsory and forced on children whether you believe or not.

It would be hypocritical to sing a hymn you don't believe in.

That is literally exactly how religions and societies have always operated. Picking and choosing. It's fine.

She didn't say that.

Huge generalisation.

I don't celebrate christmas, my wedding wasn't religious, easter passes off without notice, and I won't be having any sort of funeral ceremony, never mind one involving any sort of church.

This is despite having Christianity foisted upon me from 4 years old, compelled against my will to participate in singing Christian hymns, being dumped at Sunday School until such point I threw a tantrum and refused to stay in the room, all the stuff that certain posters are claiming is a necessity for social cohesion.

If I'm being honest, as an adult I'm not just indifferent to religion, I actively avoid it precisely because I resent what happened to me as a child, and I now have the agency and will to ensure I have nothing to do with it or it me.

So no, "we" do not jump on the bandwagon at all. Some might, but it's increasingly a minority. Even those who celebrate "Christmas", very few actually pay the blindest bit of attention to the Christian aspect. For most it's simply a family holiday where you exchange gifts, stuff yourself with food, and watch crap on TV.

So? They were examples. Immigration and change didn't stop then.

I could give more recent examples Huguenots for example between 1500 - 1800. Huge influence on our cloth making, clock making, silversmithing.

There is no point in history where the UK has not been changed by immigrants. Why should that stop now?

Everyone makes choices all the time about what they want to do as part of their religion or culture or community. All religions have various versions and nothing is anything like it was 2000 or 200 years ago - thankfully! And the recent evolution of these changes is the popularity of choosing to put up a Christmas tree yet avoid church. Tradition changes all the time.

I don’t know why I’m so invested in this thread. I think it is inherently odd to force children to pray - much less force them to pray for another religion altogether. Either the words of hymns are meaningless in which case they aren’t important to learn, or hymns are really important for worship, in which case it dilutes it to have non believers forced to lie.

Do you have a source for that ?

This faith survey of Christianity in the UK disagrees with your numbers.

Faith Survey | Christianity in the UK

Some key parts:

Belief in God- 28%

Church attendance - England 4.7%, Wales 4.8%, Scotland 8.9%

No mention of NI.

It's an older survey granted. But you are suggesting a circa 7% jump in a few years ?

This is ridiculous.

You want children subjected to compulsory hymn signing, just on the off-chance that if they choose to attend an entirely optional Remembrance event, they'll be able to join in with communal signing, but if this fails to be implemented society will further disintegrate.

I guess the many of us who stood impassively through thousands of monotonous school assemblies while some deranged minister rabbited on about some entirely fictional middle-eastern people with suspiciously Western names, stood in silence while some biddy in a twinset thumped away on a piano, and preferred sitting staring at the rain on a Sunday afternoon to contemplating doing even more of it inside a church, were unbeknownst to us, actually busy undermining the stability of the UK state and destroying the cohesiveness of our own communities. Funny, I just thought I was objecting to having a pile of utter rot I did not believe in rammed down my throat.

a catchy, easy to sing banger from They Might Be Giants.

"Science Is Real"

Science is real
From the Big Bang to DNA
Science is real
From evolution to the Milky Way
I like the stories
About angels, unicorns and elves
Now I like those stories
As much as anybody else
But when I'm seeking knowledge
Either simple or abstract
The facts are with science
The facts are with science

Science is real
Science is real
Science is real

Science is real
From anatomy to geology
Science is real
From astrophysics to biology
A scientific theory
Isn't just a hunch or guess
It's more like a question
That's been put through a lot of tests
And when a theory emerges
Consistent with the facts
The proof is with science
The truth is with science

Science is real
Science is real
Science is real

Science is real

I think that group singing at school is an excellent idea: it's morale-boosting and is a good low-cost way to learn about music. But why hymns? They represent a very narrow slice of the repertoire and are not of universally high musical quality. Also, they are linked to a specific sect of a specific religion, which has very few observant members. They're really only appropriate at a CofE school.

It would be interesting to come up with a group singing repertoire. I'd certainly include some hymns for their historic/musical value (eg Jerusalem - an English poet and an English composer). But what else? I was very surprised recently to discover that my young relatives had never heard the Skye Boat Song. But, with the rise of the Internet, and of community choirs, people now probably have access to more information about the sung repertoire than ever before, if they want it.

@PurpleThistle7 You don't have to be 'important' to go to remembrance services. Unless its a big event in a major church, most churches have a remembrance service and anyone can just walk in as they can any regular Sunday service.

I'd really recommend it as it's such a beautiful occasion. Even if the religious side of the ceremony isn't for you it's a very moving thing to be amongst a group of people all giving thanks for the sacrifice of others.

Good luck to your team in the World Cup. Might be worth sending up a few prayers!!

"I Welcome anyone into the UK willing to fully integrate into traditional British culture and not try to change it. Being inclusive doesn’t mean blindly accepting other cultures diluting yours."

"I’m all for things changing for the better, unfortunately the current direction of evolution appears to be leading to extinction"

Look, things change ok? Occasionally that's because of immigration or adopting from other cultures. I for one am very glad we're not all stuck with meat and two veg meals every day and can access pizza, pasta, curry and all sorts of other nice food.

And while I'm on the subject of food, if you're going to be nostalgic about past times, if you go back to ye olde times before the wars actually lots of people didn't get meat and two veg and subsisted largely on bread and cups of tea. A substantial proportion of army recruits signed up for the First World War were rejected due to being malnourished, 15 year old working class boys were on average only about 5 foot tall. We have problems with poverty and inequality now, but nothing like that.

We also have different technologies now, greater acceptance of being gay, much less acceptance of sexual harassment in the workplace. Once, churchgoing was 'expected', now according to the figures OP cited just 12% go at least once a month. Culture doesn't stand still. It just doesn't. And OP, it's not just about the big bad immigrants.

Edit: cross-posted with someone else saying regular church attendance is less than 5%.

I too loved hymn singing and feel sad my children don’t get that in school anymore. They don’t have a music teacher or someone who plays the piano. They rely on music from internet. All their songs are very pro-social and about resilience- I do like them.

You are assuming that the newly churchgoing people did not previously identify as Christian. I think that is a dodgy assumption to make.

Mary, Joseph and Jesus were immigrants.

Immigrants to where, moving from Bristol to Manchester isn´t being an immigrant...

They fled to Egypt to avoid Herod.

I’m Jewish so probably wouldn’t get much out of a church service! I attend remembrance events at my synagogue however - all of my grandfather’s served in ww2 and my dad was also in the army so it’s important to me. It was more to make the point that it’s totally possible to live an entire lifetime here without being surrounded by people singing hymns. So not knowing them hasn’t really affected my ability to be involved in my local community.

@PurpleThistle7 Ahhhh, I see. I thought you might never have been to a remembrance service because you thought you had to have an invitation or something. I totally get and agree with your point on hymns.

Interesting isn't it @SeaAndStars and @PurpleThistle7 .

You folk are getting on well on this thread, are displaying signs of "social cohesion and community", and yet according to the OPs premise, you should be " socially fractured and destroying society".

And not a communal hymn in sight.

I am paraphrasing the OP sorry.

:-)

It’s unlikely. That particular story probably symbolically refers to the hiding within the mundane during Jesus’s early childhood

Two individuals agreeing in a couple of points on Mumsnet isn’t social cohesion. And no you are misquoting me to fit your ill conceived point, not paraphrasing me lol. You really need to try harder