Children as guinea pigs

[Ihatetomatoes]

I know I'm not being unreasonable. Surely its unethical.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2k4jg0wkj4o.amp

I am also the parent of a trans child who is now a trans adult.

It's so simplistic to blame the parents and accuse them of abuse. This is rarely the case.

We have children who are struggling through something we dont fully understand, there is no mental health help available. If you watch your child struggling for years, self harming, education suffering, possibly suicidal, eventually get an appointment with someone who should be able to help, and they offer you blockers, it would be very hard to refuse and allow your child to keep suffering in that way when a medical professional is there offering a solution.

Often the short term is so scary, we don't know if there will be a long term for our children and do what we can, and, unfortunately have to think about the consequences later once our child's mental health has stabilised a bit.

It's a balancing act for parents and we don't always make ideal choices.

I really don't think blockers, or this trial are ethical, but I absolutely get why parents do it.

I dont know. That is why I asked the poster who said 'why dont I talk about other trials on children' for details, on a separate thread.

Seems poster wasn't bothered about it enough to do so though, just didn't appear to want people to talk about this one.

We know that almost 100% of kids on PBs go on to take cross sex hormones. How can they possibly consent to sterilisation and all the other long term side effects. Absolutely disgusting.

That assumes that blockers might stop the suffering. There is at least one campaigner against these trials on children who went through puberty blockers themselves which did harm. Why offer harm to other children.

Its a shame there isn't more mental health support for children and their families.

These are some of the side effects discussed in the study report

'2.5.1 Short-term side effects
.. These medicines may affect bone health by slowing down bone strength development. We do not know whether this persists after stopping puberty suppressing hormones. Very rarely, a condition called idiopathic intracranial hypertension can occur, which causes severe headaches, vision problems, or ringing in the ears. There is a very small chance of changes in heart rhythm, especially if puberty suppressing hormones are taken alongside other medicines. The study will carefully monitor for common and more rare adverse effects.
2.5.2 Longer-term possible effects Some possible risks may not show up until later in life. These include possible effects on: - Future fertility, especially if young people go on to cross sex hormones like testosterone or oestrogen - Bone health – increased risk of fractures - Sexual development and function - Memory and thinking skills There currently isn’t any evidence about how common these are or whether these effects are directly related to puberty suppressing hormones. This is because studies that exist look at people who choose further treatments such as cross-sex hormones. This means these effects have not yet been comprehensively studied for puberty suppressing hormones on their own. '

Good question

There's no other help though.

That's the problem.

If your kid is suffering, and a professional offers a possible solution, it's difficult to say no.

The system needs a massive overhaul.

There should be more talking therapies. Find out why an individual hates the way they were born. Born not assigned. Correlation with other factors eg autism in girls and feeling 'different ' so identify as non binary. Correlation with other societal factors, it was very "in" and very 'special ' to say you were x when my teens were at school a couple of years ago. Lots of special attention, control of others etc. Multifaceted and multifactorial reasons.

There should be, but there isn't.

So parents are left with a choice of not having any help, or getting help that will probably stop short term harm but may cause long term harm.

It's not a choice any parent should have to make.

They should use the £10million that this trial will cost to provide better mental heath support to children

Totally agree.

Presumably they’re going to check the chromosomes of the children first à la “how can I know what I am when I haven’t had my chromosomes checked?”

Yes, I’m looking at you, Isla Bumba and Kirsty Blackman.

Maybe it's not as interesting as seeing what happens to your bones, height, weight etc when given drugs to block natural development?

Puberty blockers already are used for certain medical conditions such as entering puberty very early. This is not a safety trial, this will be a case of looking at whether delaying puberty for certain individuals who already are struggling (not getting into why) at 10 years old. These will be very exceptional cases. I haven’t looked at the trial details but they will be scientifically looking at using these existing drugs in this way whereas they were used off licence in the past.

if you have ever met a child with gender dysphoria you will understand that this is real, but it’s also very rare. We have a relative who was 16 when he transitioned (f to m) but was expressing a desire to be a boy at 3 years old despite the fact they hadn’t even invented social media, it wasn’t mainstream etc. it is real.

we do need carefully constructed trials, burying heads in the sand will not work, we tried that regarding gay people in the past

Yes. It’s on a par with saying “palliative care is poor so let’s kill patients instead”.

The harmful side effects of using puberty blockers for children with precocious puberty are already known and this is when they're used for a shorter period than when used for gender reasons.

Is it rare? More and more young people have identified as the opposite sex to what they were born. Is it social contagion for many and only a very small number really have the degree of trouble that someone might suggest blocking natural puberty progression, stopping nature artificially?

They aren’t random kids. They are kids that want puberty blockers.

They want them, so is the answer yes, OK then, since you WANT them. They are still children.

Do they truly understand potential harm? Can they consent to possible harm as minors?

Look at others who have been harmed in the past taking legal action, they were also children who WANTED them....

Do you think it’s a good idea always to give kids what they think they want?

You could argue that severely dysphoric children aren't 'healthy' children, not in a holistic way that includes mental/ psychological / social wellbeing.

We already use a range of medicines, that we don't fully understand the long term effects of in 'healthy' children, who are deeply unhappy or who display challenging behaviours, or present with psychosis, struggle due to neurodivergence etc. (antidepressants, anxiolytics, stimulants, sedatives, antipsychotics, melatonin etc). We know some of those have long term harms and we suspect many may have long term effects on a developing brain.

There are still so many conditions that we don't fully understand but where medication is used when other options haven't worked, in the hope that the benefits outweigh the harm and can get a young person through the crisis point that puberty often causes.

And @Ihatetomatoes I absolutely agree, what causes the 'condition' is likely multifaceted/ multifunctional and so any research into it needs to address all those questions, not just search for a pharmacological 'cure' in isolation.

There are still so many conditions that we don't fully understand but where medication is used when other options haven't worked, in the hope that the benefits outweigh the harm and can get a young person through the crisis point that puberty often causes.

The use of puberty blockers doesn't help a child get through puberty because it prevents the child going through puberty.

The use of puberty blockers was introduced purely so adults could pass better as the opposite sex. Adult men were unhappy that they didn't pass as women so the Dutch proposed solution was to prevent boys going through puberty.

I have no skin in this game, but I’m pretty sure no systematic review has “demonstrated the opposite” (i.e. shown puberty blockers to harm mental health).

4 principles of clinical ethics: beneficence, non-maleficence, autonomy, and justice.

Massive fail on the first two at least.

The Finnish review found limited evidence of psychological benefits, with one study showing no significant long-term difference in psychosocial functioning between those who received puberty blockers plus therapy versus those who received only therapy.

So why risk all the side effects from puberty blockers when there has been shown to be no psychological benefit to taking them