Differences between college and school I've got one in each I can't believe the difference ?

[CollegeVschool]

I've got one daughter in school doing a levels and my son is in college doing a course both want to go to uni.

I'm really shocked by the difference we don't get a parents evening at college and they are told we only get your parents in if there is an issue. There have been no discussions or help to see how he can improve ? He seems to be doing ok but it's hard to tell. When I emailed to ask how he's doing I didn't feel secure that the person I spoke to knew him well or his work?
By contrast my daughters school still has parents evening for everyone and she's doing really well and there are no concerns but it's really nice for her to have that time to get praise and they get reports ? Why would they do it differently in a college ?

With my daughter I know where she is at for her course and the exams .
I feel college is so much more removed than the school and at the school they know her much better.

We were also told in my daughters school how UCAS works and there was an information evening about it . They see their references and sign them off. At the college we have had no information about it and they don't show my son the reference !
This is not necessarily a criticism but I'm just wondering why the stark difference .

I went to 6th form college (no 6th forms available in schools they had just been phased out in our area) and I think we had parents evening etc. But round here the schools all have 6th forms and the colleges are further eduction colleges, and I don't think that they are designed for 17 years olds doing normal A levels, I think they are for BTECs, resits, mature students etc, and are quite different. So I think it depends on the area and their 6th form policy, and it reallly is weird that every area can decide for themselves their 6th form policy, schools vs colleges

Way back in the early 90s I taught computer skills to adult students in an FE coledge evening class. I was paid for the actual hours I worked and that had to include any admin or preparation. Some students wanted to ask about further development or course they could take, preparation for uni, etc. I did that on my own time.

What I got out of it (in addition to a wage and somethig to put on my cv) was usuaful in another way. I became interested in the emerging discipline of human computer interation and my teaching gave me access to data. I later incorporated what I had learned and observed into my masters and doctorate.

Sixth form colleges are very differently funded and run to FE colleges. Staffing conditions in FE colleges are dire. High turnover of staff, untrained poorly paid industry trained staff employed to teach with little or no training or support in how to actually teach. I have worked in both. As an FE teacher in England I'm paid less than 40k compared with my comparable TPS scale of 50k.
FT staff teach at least 25 hours a week and are not just term time. Often doing weekend open days and evening teaching too. We have to manage learners pretty much unsupported. No head of years or SLT etc. No supply staff if staff absent due to leaving or illness so we end up covering extra content too or learners don't complete course.
Colleague holds industry experience, degree and post grad qualification and earns 28k as no teaching qualification. She is completing it alongside her day job as part of her conditions of employment.
I am down to 2 days a week now and have 200 children to teach and 1.5 hour a day PPA. to do everything. About 8% of mine have EHCPs and another 30% have additional needs and access arrangements.
I love my job but it's mad and sets me up to fail every day.

*it's not an a level one they do assignment based courses

I imagine a whole lot of it comes down to capacity. The college that dd will go to has something like 1800 students and it’s going up to like 2100. Her entire secondary school Y7-13 has 1600. That’s a lot of hand holding and a lot of parents evenings to host across probably not a huge faculty. They really can only manage to hand hold the ones who really need it.

But yes, I’ve worked 20 years in HE, but I hear FE is like the Wild West, hugely stressful, lots of turnover and a lot of work.

@wantmorenow hi, what do you mean not trained industry staff ?

Likely FE college then. Most staff are awesome or clueless. The clueless ones are because they were recruited with the promise or support and training and were given neither. They muddle through on the goodwill and mentoring of whoever they happen to share a course and staff room with. If the staff around them are also drowning in workload then they are left pretty much to their own devices, the internet and the website of whatever awarding organisation for their course. It's amazing that FE sector functions at all but somehow students seems to get what they need to succeed and the staff burnout providing it.

I went to a college myself 25 years ago and it was as you describe. We were expected to be mostly independent and there was little contact between parents and the college unless issues arose. It was by design and viewed as an important stepping stone between the high support and monitoring received in school and the close to zero support we could expect at university.

I would say the world has changed now and we expect young people to be more supported and have more parental involvement even post 18, so it sounds to me like they're a little old fashioned, but I think it's unfair to be so heavily critical - I still think there is value in expecting them to be independent.

What course is he doing? I can explain more if I know the sector.

Isn’t this the point of college though?

personally I studied a levels at a college (and a good college too), so it wasn’t a case of A levels vs less rigorous qualifications for me. The main benefit of going to a college is getting more independence & not being treated like a child at school. I obviously studied the same curriculum for my a levels as the sixth form attached to my secondary school, but had the benefit of more people to meet/socialise with, having a less insular environment, a wider world view, more a level subjects to choose from etc. I didn’t need my parents to be involved, the whole point was being treated like an independent adult and taking responsibility and ownership of my success.

Also some colleges do advise on UCAS, mine did. They had sessions to help with university applications and the college was very much geared up to helping people get into universities.

This. It prepared me better for university and adult life than staying at school would've.

I don’t know why you’re surprised. 6th forms are generally more formal and like school and indeed, many are part of schools so they follow the same ethos.

Colleges are more like university - more informal and more expectation to sort yourself out.

Neither is inherently better, it depends on the individual student as to what suits them best.

College tends to be geared to being adult and more grown up and treats the attendees as adults. Less parental involvement and spoon feeding more find out for yourself / organise yourself / ask if you don’t know as an adult would have to. At school they tend to do much more spoon feeding and organising.

I'm a (mostly) 6th form teacher in a school sixth form with 185 students and a trainee teacher to look after (30 of them are "only tutees" but I have to do UCAS for them as well as advise all those who want to study my subject at university).

I work 4 days a week and usually put in 40-50 hours. I don't get 3 hours free a week.

It's true the pay's better than college, but if I wasn't actually required to look after pastoral issues, contact and meet with parents and so on, I would probably do less of it - it's human nature!

Yes this is why he chose it but even he is surprised at how little input there is. He enjoys the part time week, and the freedom there but even he said he finds little input from his teachers.
Having freedom is one thing but sort of being totally left to it is another surely ?
He did also say some of the behaviour can be really bad.

Oh yes the other thing that takes a big chunk of time these days in school sixth forms: behaviour management.

When you looked round, OP, was it a special evening open event?

It can be v useful to see schools and colleges during the day and to hang around a bit and see what the corridors, social areas and entrances and exits are like.

It’s ironic really as the vocational colleges cater for the less academic kids so you would think they need a stricter regime to achieve whereas the 6th formers are more self-motivated and therefore need less pushing.

My parents were never contacted when I was at college. Ever. They said the same, if they needed to then they’d contact them. But if we dropped out back then it was up to us. Probably different now. But they are young adults. Do you need to be contacted??

Behaviours are different in both settings. In FE the data that management focuses on are attainment and completion. If a student is still on the register after 42 days of the course then college will be penalised for any student leaving or not successfully completing. This definitely affects how behaviour is managed. Getting a student off the course is almost impossible no matter what they do or how badly they behave or attend or even if they do very little work of any standard. 😫

I thought this was literally one of the points of big colleges - it was like this 25 years ago anyway. It was basically seen as a stepping stone from school to Uni and you were treated much more like a uni student than a school child.

IMO it helped no end to adjust to uni as you were long past the days of being spoon fed or having parents overseeing your progress.

On my law degree those that hadn’t been to a big FE college really struggled to adjust in the first year.

My sons went to a six form college. Some of their friends stayed at the 6 form of their secondary school. The 6 Form College still had parents evenings and assistance with UCAS and personal statements.

I just thought the 6 form college was a good stepping stone to Uni as they’re given more freedom and personal responsibility. At school 6 form they’re still spoon fed but if you have the type of child who has no real motivation and only works when someone is pushing them they will unravel when they get to Uni. That’s exactly what happened with a friend of my eldest. Left school 6 form to go to 6 form college. Did bugger all and failed all his 1st A level mocks. Went back to school 6 form where he had to start again in the first year 6 form. Was spoon fed and pushed for 2 years and got decent enough A levels to get into a decent Uni. Failed first year at Uni and got kicked out because he just had no self discipline.

It really depends on the college. Two we visited locally were both colleges not schools, but miles apart on this aspect. You could see the difference even on the offer days.

The DC had to go along with their predicted grades and say what they wanted to take. At both, teachers were sitting at tables and the DC would go talk to them and show them their predicted grades.

But, at the first 6th form we visited, multiple chairs were put at the tables and you could go sit with your DC while the teacher spoke to them. At the second, parents were corralled into a separate waiting area, and just one chair was put at each table, for the DC only.

At the first college, you get a parents evening, at the second you don't. The first has a reputation for being nurturing, the second for getting good grades academically - but being a place where DC don't always get the help they need if in trouble - they can slip through the gaps.

DS is academic but also can need a bit of support. It was a tricky decision over which one he should go to.

There are no schools with a sixth form in my area, A levels are done at a sixth form college. There is also a FE college which does more vocational courses, this is the one normally called "college".
My DC both went to the sixth form college which was like a school in respect of parent's evenings and close monitoring of work, full timetable, but more relaxed than a school as regards rules and uniform. It was actually a nice bridge between school and uni.

You’re absolutely right. My oldest DGC (state schooled) has been through an amazing state 6th form college! There is real competition for places, quite a few go there from private school because the outcomes are so good. No uniforms and an emphasis on personal responsibility. There was enough communication with parents and plenty of help with planning for university.

Quite different from FE colleges.

My 16 year old is doing a trade at college and we know nothing except what he tells us. I’m not sure if they’d call if he didn’t turn up or not and doubt they’ll be a parents evening.