So who is going to be brave enough to ask whether Shabana Mahmood's proposed reforms are right/sensible/racist?

[Papyrophile]

Is Shabana Mahmood right or wrong to restrict asylum seeker's rights? In general?

Interesting you have brought "non white" into it. I don't give a fig about the colour of someone's skin, I do care if they're from a culture where women are treated as lesser, and not allowed the same basic rights as men (or for that matter, individuals who ascibe to these beliefs). Those who accept we're equal, I have no problem with. Those that are an issue are those, such as I see in daily life in my own neighbourhood, who hold deeply sexist values.

I have literally specified I am talking about men from sexist cultures. It's you who's generalised that to skin colour. Weird.

I live in a multicultural area. I'm fully aware that there are non-white people who hold broadly the same values (not least those who are 2nd or 3rd generation and so thoughroughly British). Unfortunately it it these people who take undeserved flak when there is backlash against those who want to move here but don't want to share our values.

Agreed. We need to be tackling it on all fronts. It's terrifying.

I said not white British which includes all other white and non white heritage men and it was in response to comments about ‘ other cultures’ not respecting women.

Arranged marriages, yes. I wasn't aware about the underage element though.

Also as mentioned, I had got the impression that Indian migrants (Hindus, Sikhs) assimilated more, and that India itself appears to move with the times to some degree (eg. fewer arranged marriages). As mentioned this could just be my impression as it's years since I've actually been there, and I'm basing stuff on my Indian friend and neighbours experiences/views.

Then we're talking at cross purposes. Because I specifically referred to cultures that don't respect women.
At no point did I divide the world into "UK culture" and "other cultures that btw don't respect women".

The U.K. needs to do something to protect our culture which is steadily being eroded, the very fact that people feel they can’t voice opinions shows for fear of insults shows our free speech is under threat. We shouldn’t feel as a nation we have to make our religion and culture on a lesser footing than those cultures and faiths we have welcomed in. Integration is important and blending cultures is to be celebrated but where cultures won’t integrate but want to impose their values that is not harmony

Funny how you should say that these groups have moved with the times, and yet you have no such hope for British Muslims, instead expecting them to take over the UK completely in enough years? Bearing in mind there are plenty of Muslims in the UK who already lead a law-abiding, respectful of the British way of life, life?

But no, arranged/forced marriages are still very much part of some groups, even in England. I remember the case of the Birmingham mother being found guilty of duping her 17 year old daughter into marrying a much older man while on holiday back home to Pakistan. Forced marriage, from the three faiths still happens in the UK, but while overseas to see family, and some underage.

This makes interesting reading. Sad though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/forced-marriage-unit-statistics-2022/forced-marriage-unit-statistics-2022#age-of-victims

In what way is your free speech being curtailed, exactly? What sort of thing do you want to say that can't be said, and why are you unable to say it? Is someone actually stopping you from speaking up, and if so, how exactly are they doing this? Or is it more that you don't like it when other people use their free speech to criticise or disagree with what you've said?

How do you feel that your religion and culture has been put on a lesser footing, exactly? And which specific aspects of your culture have been eroded?

@Happyjoe

Funny how you should say that these groups have moved with the times, and yet you have no such hope for British Muslims, instead expecting them to take over the UK completely in enough years?

Well I would have assumed the same for Muslims* but that doesn't seem to be what actually happens. As in the example I gave upthread where the man "marrying" the girl was actually born and raised in the UK. It's actually been observed and written about, that certain groups (not all individuals) remain in a sort of separate parallel culture.

*I've said Muslim but I think it's more cultural. Compare Pakistani Muslims to Malaysian Muslims for example.

ETA: It's not all Muslims living in the UK, either. But enough who don't assimilate to be a concern. And it concerns me that if it came to the crunch, the moderate Muslims might support them rather than us.

Whenever migration is voiced as a concern or the view that British culture is under threat and that that the nations values are under threat there is an immediate call by some these views are racist. if you work in the public sector or large corporation such an allegation is extremely worrying and and a real threat to your job even though that view is not racist (It is possible to have that view without being racist and that seems incomprehensible to some people). so yes you can’t say what you think for fear of your job. People feel under pressure and that is why debate has been stifled and people feel powerless as they can’t express what they feel.

Can you not see that you are a, singling out Muslims for this crime and yet other faiths do and still have those attitudes in the UK? And b, you are lumping together all the muslims in the UK on some?

I don't have an issue as to what you write, things like forced marriage certainly does not align with British culture and has to be stopped, not driven underground, but it's the singling out of Muslims that is troublesome to me. Using a logical head, yes, there are Muslim men who disrespect women, just as there are those that don't. If it is about being a threat to women, that comes from men, many many different types of men too.

I don't think anyone actually thinks it's racist to express measured opinions about immigration policy. I also don't think anyone actually loses their job simply for expressing measured opinions about immigration policy. And if they did, they could claim for unfair dismissal - political beliefs are protected by law.

Of course, some people seem to be incapable of expressing concerns about immigration without also saying racist things that would put them in breach of their employer's policies or potentially bring their employer into disrepute etc. And if people do express racist views, then yes, they could well lose their jobs. And rightly so.

The solution is obviously to learn to say what you want to say about immigration without actually saying anything racist. I'm not sure why so many people seem to struggle with this. But if you engage with the detail of why people are calling you racist and actually try to understand, you might be able to reflect on how you're expressing your thoughts and learn to express them in a more neutral manner.

I do think it's really important to understand what free speech actually means, as a lot of people seem to believe that it means that people should be free to say whatever they like with no consequences. That isn't quite how it works. We absolutely do have free speech in this country, with certain limitations which are designed to protect the rights of others, e.g. you can't incite violence etc. What we don't have is the freedom to say whatever we like while demanding that our words should have no impact on how other people perceive us, or on how they choose to respond.

Just an afterthought. If people really struggle to express themselves on the subject of immigration without sounding racist, ChatGPT might be able to help. Try asking it to rewrite a post but make it sound less racist.

Well here are some, not that you’ll address them directly or take them seriously in any way.

1. The fact we are already grossly overcrowded, 8th in Europe with only places like Vatican City and the Channel Islands before us. And that’s when the figures are swayed by the Highlands. No doubt you’ll try to argue ‘overcrowded’ is subjective and we’re not really
2. The fact there is a new rape or attack by a so-called ‘asylum seeker’ every few days which seems grossly disproportionate to their apparently tiny numbers. No accurate data is kept on their offending so I’m expecting the faux naive ‘but white men…’ despite the fact a rape every few days from a group of men which is around 50,000 strong. It’s the equivalent of a new rape or sex attack in a town the size of Llanelli every few days. No doubt you’ll claim this is ‘normal’.
3. The fact the local residents near migrant hotels are the ones out campaigning that they don’t feel safe. Why don’t you believe them?
4. The fact we have unwittingly imported terrorists, murders and sex attackers because, surprise surprise, men from countries where the governments are in themselves terrorist agencies like the Taliban do not keep diligent records on these crimes to then share with us. There is no ‘vetting’ just an absence of information. Fuck knows who they are, we have no clue.
5. The fact they’re costing us a fortune and want to bring their enormous families with them, in some cases 10+ relatives. Everyone is convinced they’re a future doctor or engineer. Why? Nothing has suggested to me they’re of a higher average intelligence than anyone here, they’re more likely to end up driving for Deliveroo while claiming Universal Credit.

Aww thank you so much. I’ll put the above into Chat GPT, hopefully whatever it spits out will make you feel more comfortable. Here’s hoping the robots take over eventually.

And just to add some context to my above post, here are some articles from the last few days alone. Don’t be offended by my mere posting of these - and if you are, ask yourself why.

https://news.sky.com/story/failed-asylum-seeker-accused-of-raping-woman-in-bournemouth-13470243

https://rdg.today/asylum-seeker-from-reading-jailed-for-rape-of-15-year-old-in-oxford/

Stranger rape is unusual, to the extent it makes the news. The majority of sexual crimes happen between people known to each other. The latter doesn’t magically excuse a spike in the former, and we have no idea what these men are like in their private lives either.

Does this seem objectively very high to you? Let me guess, ‘no, not really, the problem is men…’

Starmer did rely on using the term racist recently and it echoed on here by some.

Up until Mahmood making an announcement most discussion was deemed far right, racist and extreme.

On hypocrisy alone Labour should fold on this one. Doing this means they can’t use the ‘culture wars’ deflection, how old hat is that.

Now Mahmood is ‘tough’ apparently expect conversation to follow. If it’s not working hard enough the next GE will see further tougher changes. Labour won’t be able to dismiss as they did last time.

Currently most crossing are by men but the family reunification allowed women and children to arrive later not by crossing the Channel.

If you look at crossing stats v asylum claims you can see that the latter has more women due to that.

On what will happen, I expect if numbers keep steady or go up Labour won’t be able to dismiss this issue as they did at the last GE and other parties will propose tougher stuff. Wait and see I guess.

I think something, anything, needs to be done pretty sharpish. This is data from 2018, before the significant Boris wave of legal migrants and the dramatic increase in boat arrivals aince covid. Look at the bulge in males in a community that absorbs many migrants. It’s wild!

Tbh, all we’ve heard is words from the government. No action. I fear we are being gaslit, slowly broken down to accept the current situation (similar too with crime).

But we know ‘other’ cultures don’t respect our values, eg the way they treat women - is what you said.

So, assuming your culture is white British, it implies white British men do treat women well, which they certainly don’t, and ‘ other’ cultures - white non British, black, Asian etc- don’t - which is also not true.

No implications needed - we can just look at the stats. They collate sexual assaults by nationality in Germany, and off the top of my head Afghani men are 16 times more likely to rape than German men, for instance.