So who is going to be brave enough to ask whether Shabana Mahmood's proposed reforms are right/sensible/racist?

[Papyrophile]

Is Shabana Mahmood right or wrong to restrict asylum seeker's rights? In general?

but unregistered marriages are not illegal.

I never said they were. However, again, all marriages in the UK must be registered in order for them to be legal. Without it, they are not legally married (and therefore none of the marital rules apply). The rest is just religious ceremony. God, I could marry my toaster tomorrow and it means nothing unless it's recognised legally.

No outrage, just wondering why you only mentioned Muslim.

But we know certain cultures don't share our values. We can see how they treat women, or gay people, for example. It's not "malarkey", it's literally obvious cultural difference.

And whilst I take my hat off to those men for their swift action and bravery - for which they should absolutely be commended, frankly the train bloke is a hero - saving people in various situations doesn't actually mean someone is in agreement with other cultural values. Deeply sexist men may be willing to save lives. (I have no idea about the other values of the men mentioned so don't want to cast aspersions on them specifically - it's more a general point.) I'm sure there's excellent charity work done by fundamentalist christians in the US, but I wouldn't want them moving here and influencing our culture.

We’re on the same page. I’m simply saying that we need a prohibition on carrying out religious marriages and not registering them. All married women must be afforded the same legal rights. Allowing a parallel society to exist in which women (often mothers) are denied access to the rights written into U.K. law is appalling. They are often not only denied a share of the marital assets, but they are denied custody of their children because the entire divorce is handled by men in their community and they are never told they have other legal rights. If they were legally married and a divorce had to comply with U.K. law then they would also have access to information on their rights to have custody of their children, child maintenance etc.

Why not? It's a plausible option.

For the record, it was Muslim.

However, I'm genuinely curious - is there an issue with underage "marriages" in other cultures within the UK? I'd have assumed Muslim simply because it's only with certain Muslim cultures I've heard of this being an issue in the UK. (I know in the US there's underage marriages (actually legal, horrifyingly) in some Christian communities.)

She’s right and I agree with her.

if you think all white indigenous British men treat women well, I have a bridge to sell you.

In all honesty, what influence do these cultures really have on British culture? I mean, we're not forced to go to Mosques or a synagogue, obey their faith or way of life? Sharia law is not legal in the UK, non muslim women are not forced to cover up, there has been no ban of pubs etc.

Vast majority of the fear in the UK is based on, well, untruths.

What we do see is little pockets in the UK where Muslim people are together. But this has always happened! China town in London/Manchester, Little Italy also in London. Windrush in Brixton. These places are celebrated as part of UK's rich history.

If Ancestry for £40 can tell me I’m 97% NW England then the Govt can pinpoint where these illegal immigrants come from

Asian communities (Hindu, Sikh as well as Muslim) have a history of marrying young girls.

Yes, the USA is bad in some states too - and forced to marry their rapists as well because of avoiding stat rape charges. Ugh.

Oh god yeh, I know they don't! But we are kind of stuck with them (not fair to foist them onto another country) and have to keep trying to do whatever it takes to change these backwards men, or at least create fewer of them over time.

At least most men accept that women should have the same basic freedoms as men, even if some of them are utterly disgusting towards us. It's not really the same thing as cultures where there is widespread agreement and adherence to women being denied the same basic rights as men though, is it? In those cultures, as in ours, there will be rapists and murderers and so on, but even the "good" men treat women as second class citizens or even property. We should not be importing this sort of culture. Especially when we're still trying to stamp out the remnants of it from our own culture.

Get really fed up people suggesting "racism" (for everything!).

She hasn't gone far enough IMO. One thing that stuck out is that in Denmark anyone seeking asylum must be able to pass an exam in Danish language. Same should apply in UK. No one should be living in the country without being able to converse with the natives.

Does that not strike you as very strange if running from a war torn country? Not really enough time to spend a year at night class is it?
I doubt all Ukrainians could speak English. Would it not be more reasonable that they must learn English while here?

Ah, that's interesting. I hadn't realised it was an issue, at least not in UK immigrant communities (different in country of origin). I'd always got the impression that Hindus and Sikhs assimilated to a larger degree to UK culture. (This just from my POV from growing up in an area with lots of Indians - now living in a different area that's more mixed.)

No they don’t. Many many men from non white British backgrounds treat women with the greatest respect. I really think you are generalising here and that is dangerous.

There's plenty and a growing number of men and young boys with the Andrew Tate's of the world viewpoints on women, who do think that women are lesser creatures and are there for their pleasure and to be controlled/owned.

And of course, the incels. It's extremism and it's growing. The threat to women is not a Muslim immigrant only thing, to be fair, it's a men thing.

Can we make white British people take an exam in the English language too

There are certainly a lot of people native to this country who are barely literate.

I am older than you (probably) and arranged marriages mentioned were always from the South Asian communities years ago. It's been mentioned over the years in different ways, movies, plays, books.

What concerns me is that the numbers are increasing, meaning at some point there will be a tipping point where the overall culture will change as it won't just be little isolated groups. This may not be within my lifetime, but I fear for my DC and their DC and all future generations if this is allowed to happen. It feels very frightening, as a woman, to realise I live in one of the few places and times where I have freedoms, and how fragile that is - one would hope it would spread across the globe and across time, but instead it risks being erased. Terrifying.

I also don't like the oppressive presence of Islam in my local neighbourhood. The visible reminders that you just don't get with other religions. If I move I'll no doubt be accused of "white flight" but I don't feel the same about other religions, as currently practised in the UK (if some US fundamentalists start to move here in droves I'll be protesting about them for the same reasons!)

That aside, there is the argument to limit migration based on population density - frankly that applies to all races and creeds.

Something needs to be done, that's about all I feel sure about.

I thought most male migrants already were young and single?

Otoh very good point re women and children. Maybe the expanded legal route could help?

What do you think should be done?

Mass migration fundamentally alters the character of a country, because the migrants will seek to recreate their ancestral homelands in the new host country. The implications for this are enormous, particularly if the immigrant culture shares little in common with the host culture.

It is conceivable that in immigrant culture could effectively “vote out” the host culture if demographics facilitate such a path.

How much of the fear you feel is based on reality though? I understand you feel fear, but sometimes it's irrational. I don't feel fear from any religious group and yes, I have lived in areas with a high muslim population - Leeds and worked in Bradford.

Yes, limiting migration is fine, the UK is only a small country. It's the highlighting just one faith or skin colour that bothers me when some people say about immigration. Nearly nobody mentions that, for example, Albanian's came on boats in far larger numbers than Arab countries a few years ago, and Albanian's largely responsible for coke and other drugs, prostitution, slavery and real nasty crime in the UK... but they are white.