To think a lot of MN are ableist?

[Sweetlifeofyours]

So I wasn’t going to post but as a mum with a disabled child myself I feel like I have to get things off my chest. I have read a couple of threads over the past week or so regarding mothers who are looking for advice and support for their disabled child/children (2 that stick out to me)

I was very sad to see that there were only a few posters who actually gave support and advice to the OP’s. The rest were in my opinion, downright rude and nasty and clearly just wanted to upset the OP’s even more for whatever reason.

As a mum with a SEN child, it is incredibly difficult and I myself don’t always get the correct help and support I need so to come on here and see that other women/parents show their (somewhat) true opinions of disabled children upset me.

I am completely 100% on board that autism shouldn’t be an excuse for everything, but surely some compassion wouldn’t go amiss to a struggling parent.

One of the worst things I read was a poster saying to the OP that they should make sure their child doesn’t turn into a sex offender because he enjoys hugs. Says more to me about the poster rather than the OP and their child.

I guess my AIBU is, do you think people (maybe especially on here) should have more compassion for the disabled community or have you read threads where you agree with the majority of comments (especially where we are talking about young children)?

I think this is a super grey area and not as black and white as people like to imply. Some people will never have capacity to consent and yet we know that they may be suffering unimaginably with absolutely no hope of ever achieving any kind of quality of life. What is kindest thing in this scenario?

An adult with full capacity can hopefully one day consent to ending their life humanely assuming the law will change. We know lots of people want this for themselves and have full capacity, yet we assume that not providing those who can't consent with a dignified and humane death is the kind and compassionate thing to do.

We treat animals better than we treat humans.

All well and good @Marshmallow4545 and I don't really disagree, but once the legislation is in place I suspect mission creep is inevitable, and that factors such as cost to the state and others, burden on others and subjective interpretations around disabled peoples' quality of life (of which we may have little understanding) will be brought into play. I am less comfortable with that.

FWIW my child is profoundly autistic. He did not sleep as a baby and once able, he would smear his shit everywhere to meet some kind of sensory need. I used to sew him into his onesie every night and on the off chance he nodded off, I had to stay awake so I would hear him if he smeared. My life was a living hell and I said at the time (and posted on here) that I wished there had been a pre-natal test for autism so I could have had an abortion, and that I hoped this was available to mothers in future. He's now 8, has grown out of the smearing, is thriving in special school and is both the most joyful child I have ever met and the absolute apple of my eye. In most cases (but I accept not all), there is hope for improvement and we should not make a life-ending decision based on a snapshot.

precisely.

Which is why i made my point earlier.

Again, dealing with comments from people who have NO experience of this stuff.

Perhaps they should live a while in our shoes.

It's not grey. The killing of the learning disabled who cannot consent will never be ok. I don't understand why people need to go on and on about the killing of those with disability who aren't cognitively able to provide this consent and pretending we are doing them a favour. You clearly see them as a lesser human being. As least be honest about that

Also disable people are humans, not animals (who don't happen to have human rights). HTH

Not to mention the pretending from some people that it's about their suffering or wellbeing, that's just an after thought.

It's an attempt to save money.

Some children also don't become disabled until later in life, not all children are born disabled. My son was completely healthy for 8 years and then he wasn't, just like that.

Everyone's child is an accident or illness away from a disability.

Sometimes doctors predicted outcomes are wrong too. My son wasn't expected to survive at all and I was told by a well respected paeds neurology consultant that if my son survived, he wouldn't be the child he was before as he was certain due to his 20 minute cardiac arrest that he'd have a severe brain injury.

He was wrong. Imagine if I was advised to think about his wellbeing, how much he'd suffer and to consider doing the ''kind'' thing instead of asking them to continue to attempt to save him?

What on earth has that response got to do with my post? I was replying to a poster advocating for the mass extermination of disabled newborns and babies, termination was not mentioned once. Your comment is another irrelevant red herring which adds nothing to the conversation apart from attempting to deflect and excuse the inexcusable, in this case the views of the poster I was responding to about the value of the lives of disabled children

Agreed and even when someone does have severe learning disabilities like my son ,he still has a very good quality of life
It's not up to others to say his life is less than other, s
If only we could consider Euthanasia for those who hold abhorrent views ....

I think all humans should have the right to a humane death.

The reality is that a lot of us may lose capacity before we are in a position where it's obvious that the pain and suffering exceeds any quality of life. This therefore isn't just a discussion about the disabled. It's about everyone that isn't in a position to provide consent.

I am sickened by your accusations. The only one of the two of us talking about disabled people being lesser is you. I have also not compared them to animals. The fact that you have read my post and assumed all of this says more about you than it does me.

I was referencing AD where the child was clearly suffering and their quality of life was incredibly unlikely to improve. I'm thinking of a terminally ill disabled person that is clearly experiencing pain that is hard to control and where the prognosis is extremely poor. I believe a large proportion of people would opt for AD in that scenario if they were deemed to have capacity and it were legal. If someone was forced to go through that because they were deemed to not have capacity then surely this is discriminatory? They are being forced to endure something that a lot of people would opt out of.

You said that heartless and ignorant people like you, lacking any imagination, would probably have thought would mean I would never do anything worthwhile. Luckily, my wonderful parents didn't hold such horrifying views

That poster aside wonderful parents might make the difficult decision to terminate because of their belief about the poor quality of life ahead. Decisions like this are not binary.

People mske decions to terminate for a myriad of reasons not just disability
However terminating a pregnancy is in no way comparable to terminating the life of a living, breathing child.

Exactly.

When he told me that, I said he'll still be *George, my George and I'm confident that he'd still be able to have a good life even if it wasn't the same as before and then we actually had a chat about his neurology clinics and how part of his job is helping children with severe learning disabilities.

He's met my son properly since that day and told me he just had to see him in person and see for himself how he's doing because he just couldn't believe that he survived and called him a miracle. He's a really wonderful doctor.

(*not really called George)

Your shoes are not easy but they are the hardest shoes to walk in, not by a country mile. You live in a country with a welfare state.

If someone was forced to go through that because they were deemed to not have capacity then surely this is discriminatory? They are being forced to endure something that a lot of people would opt out of.

No, deciding not to end someone's life is never discriminatory. Surprised that needs pointing out. A system requiring capacity may be imperfect, but it's MUCH better than the alternative that you seem to be proposing.

People don't get to "opt out" on behalf of others.

That gave me a lump in my throat
I hope " George" remains well and continues to live a fulfilled life

We don't live in a country where this is a possibility. We do live in a country where people can discuss whether all life is sacred. It doesn't make someone bad for raising the question. Italy prioritised the young and healthy during covid at the expense of the elderly and disabled. Sometimes we need to be pragmatic especially when it comes to scarce resources.

Don't state opinion as fact. Of course not ending someone's life is discriminatory if that is considered the most humane and compassion outcome for that person.

Slightly different but we already effectively place DNR orders on people now that do not give their consent but where it is considered in that person's best interest. Do you agree with this? If so, why is this ok but AD isn't if the decisions are being made with the same rationale?

I feel incredibly lucky that he was the consultant that happened to be on call for the children's assessment ward that night.

Thanks. I hope the same for your son too.

Show me where i have said they are?

On that note, actually don't. Stop replying to me, you have nothing to say that i have any desire to pay further attention to.

In your terrifying eugenicist fantasy world, who gets to decide who would be better off 'put out of their misery'? I am glad nobody was able to make that decision for me as a severely physically disabled baby since I have lived a very happy, rich and fulfilling life thank you very much, even if compassionate souls like you probably think I'd have been better off dead. That says far more about the value you place on human life and your inability to imagine that a severely disabled child could ever experience a happy life because it might look different to yours than it does about the worth and capacity of disabled children.

Not attempting resuscitation means not actively doing anything when someone goes into cardiac arrest
Resuscitation often doesn't work and can be brutal
Assisted dying is activly ending someone, s life by with drawing life saving treatments ,medications
And giving medications that induce death of course they are different.

They are different but they both ultimately lead to the potential shortening of a life versus what would happen if an alternative decision was made.

Both prioritise other things over simply length of life

They're complete opposites.

in AD the person is alive, you're choosing to end it.

In a DNR they're dead, and you're choosing not to interfere to restore life.

They're in NO way related.

What are you talking about eugenicist? Honestly you make me sick! What is eugenicist about extending AD to people who can't consent if you have the same safeguards we already have with DNR and the threshold for AD was high enough e.g. terminal illness , high levels of suffering etc.

It is utterly disgusting how posters are merrily accusing other posters of the most horrific things. I'm assuming you weren't born terminally ill as a baby so it's not even relevant to your situation. Read posts properly before posting such inflammatory irrelevant bile. I've clarified earlier upthread the specifics around the AD I'm referring to

I fear there is no reasoning with someone so entirely lacking in both humanity and understanding.
It is beyond depressing that this thred, attempting to hold MN to account for its total inaction on hate speech aimed at disabled children and adults has descended into another sickening cesspit of the most appaling ableist views being freely shared. We now have multiple posters coldly and matter of factly calling for the murder of all severely disabled babies and the MN mods do absolutely nothing. Shame on them, we will not forget and it is proof, once again, that this site is not a safe or welcoming place for disabled users, though those who want us dead are greeted with open arms.