To think a lot of MN are ableist?

[Sweetlifeofyours]

So I wasn’t going to post but as a mum with a disabled child myself I feel like I have to get things off my chest. I have read a couple of threads over the past week or so regarding mothers who are looking for advice and support for their disabled child/children (2 that stick out to me)

I was very sad to see that there were only a few posters who actually gave support and advice to the OP’s. The rest were in my opinion, downright rude and nasty and clearly just wanted to upset the OP’s even more for whatever reason.

As a mum with a SEN child, it is incredibly difficult and I myself don’t always get the correct help and support I need so to come on here and see that other women/parents show their (somewhat) true opinions of disabled children upset me.

I am completely 100% on board that autism shouldn’t be an excuse for everything, but surely some compassion wouldn’t go amiss to a struggling parent.

One of the worst things I read was a poster saying to the OP that they should make sure their child doesn’t turn into a sex offender because he enjoys hugs. Says more to me about the poster rather than the OP and their child.

I guess my AIBU is, do you think people (maybe especially on here) should have more compassion for the disabled community or have you read threads where you agree with the majority of comments (especially where we are talking about young children)?

Criteria has been changed marginally to accommodate improved knowledge which is a very good thing. Global rates are still tiny -2-3% in adults.Women and girls previously went completely under the radar with a catastrophic impact on life.

It’s a high threshold to reach and the condition is a massive impact on life.

The criteria absolutely didn't change marginally. That is a complete misrepresentation of the changes that were made.

NHS studies have shown that prevalence is likely to be much higher in the population. The stats here relate to the ASRS screening test but some NHS clinics have a diagnosis conversion rate of over 95% following referral so it could easily follow that around 13% of people could be diagnosed with ADHD. We have seen positive ASRS results shoot up by more than 50% in less than ten years.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder

It's not a favour to the state. It is caring for your own child which should be the default for all parents. Of course having a disabled child changes the nature of this but it is your child. For the same reason, I think you are your child's advocate and should be in a position to make the best decisions for your child. Not the State. It's hard to argue it all ways. That you have no real responsibility to care for your own child and so if you choose to do so then you are doing the default carer (the State) a favour but then claim that you should have complete autonomy over parenting decisions and being the one that makes the big choices for your child. That's wanting all the power without any responsibility.

For the record though, I absolutely think parents should be supported by the welfare state to care for their children if required. Surely this is what the system is there for? I can't understand anyone arguing otherwise. You are placing parents in an impossible situation.

But they’re not being diagnosed at 13% they’re being under diagnosed from the low global rate.

And the changes aren’t huge.

• Adult-specific examples: The DSM-5 included clarifications and expanded examples of how symptoms manifest in adults, such as losing "things necessary for task activities" like a wallet or keys instead of just toys or school supplies.
• Reduced symptom threshold for adults: For adults (age 17 and older), the number of required symptoms was lowered from six to five to better reflect adult ADHD presentation, according to the National Institutes of Health.
• Increased age of onset: The age by which symptoms must have first appeared was raised from seven to twelve, which helps in the diagnosis of adults who may have had symptoms since childhood but were not diagnosed.
• Clarification of presentations: The DSM-5 replaced the term "subtypes" with "presentations" to describe the various ways ADHD can manifest.
• Co-occurring conditions: A significant change was the removal of the exclusion that prevented a diagnosis of both autism spectrum disorder and ADHD in the same individual, .

The forms and info needed for children from schools are lengthy and detailed.

The NHS ADHD Taskforce lists how changes need to be made going forward re the disgraceful set up we currently have in this country.

The changes are huge! Required age of onset has almost doubled, you need less symptoms and there is a far greater range of examples.

They're only not being diagnosed at that rate because not everyone that is eligible is attempting to get a diagnosis. If they did and the rate of positive screening continued to increase by 50% then we will be looking at well over 20% of the population potentially having ADHD in a few years.

No you’re inflating and scaremongering to suit your narrative.

I think I trust the NHS Taskforce rather than a random ableist anti ADHD MNer.

I am quoting statistics from the ADHD Taskforce?

I think we get to the heart of the issue here. How have I been ableist? I want you to specify what exactly I have written that is ableist. I am sick of posters accusing anyone that doesn't agree with them of being ableist. It's a weapon used to shut down debate and stop discussion. Making fake allegations should be treated very very seriously. Disagreement is not discrimination.

I've met at least 2 people with the same diagnosis as myself who hold such views. There's a lot of "I manage, why don't you?" It's simple - I struggle because I have other diagnoses they don't

There is a lot of snobbery of those with HF ASD towards the lower functioning end (also parents of HF children towards parents of LF children who failed to teach their children certain skills.). Some people can't comprehend why my DC (autism + severe learning difficulties) is unable to do X/Y/X simply because there HF and very academic child managed.

I would say that people say ableist because they don't feel listened to. I (not on this thread) have had this discussion many times where I explain lived experience and am shut down and told I just need to learn to cope like other people. I agree that disagreeing is not inherently ableist, but many disabled people are just tired of having to justify their lives and accommodations.

You are twisting said stats to suit your anti ADHD narrative whilst ignoring the findings and conclusions as a whole from the Taskforce.

"(also parents of HF children towards parents of LF children who failed to teach their children certain skills.). Some people can't comprehend why my DC (autism + severe learning difficulties) is unable to do X/Y/X simply because there HF and very academic child managed."

Yes
"Autism is no excuse"
"My child understands because I worked hard/ taught them right from wrong"
"They all have to learn"
Etc
From people who should know better.

Oh God yes
There's a complete lack of understanding from some people that just because their autistic child is able to learn / do something all autistic children will .

I am not twisting anything. I linked the report so people can read it themselves. The Taskforce ends the report with the following statement:

There is a lack of survey data describing the presence of possible ADHD in the general adult population in England and the circumstances of adults with ADHD are poorly understood. The APMS series helps to address these data gaps

I am simply using the best data we have to estimate prevalance of ADHD amongst the population using the Taskforce's own statistics. I am using established trends to estimate future prevalance. The report itself notes that ADHD is more common in young people so it stands to reason that prevalance will increase as the population changes. Do you dispute this? We know for a fact that conversion rate from referral to diagnosis is above 90% in some NHS clinics and higher in private ones.

I believe that the threshold for an ADHD diagnosis as a disability is too low but I am absolutely not anti ADHD. It absolutely can be disabling.

My argument is that ND/NT and therefore ADHD is largely misunderstood and misrepresented. Most people have ND traits that adversely impact their lives in a meaningful way. Whether they be ASD traits, ADHD traits .. studies have repeatedly shown this. At the moment we use subjective, arbitrary testing to diagnose people and then act as though anybody just below the threshold is a different species to anyone just above it. We use phrases like 'ND people have their brains wired differently' when we know this isn't the case. People with BAP have similar brains to people with ASD diagnoses. People that exhibit ADHD traits and just miss out on a diagnosis have similar brains to those with a diagnosis. It's is a grey, complex area of science that people try to simplify too easily and then suggest large percentages of our population are disabled and everyone else is completely NT and has to accommodate and fund those who sit the other side of a threshold, it's madness and isn't really working for anyone.

That works both ways. Ableism is rife on MN. The disabled and their carers should be under as scrutiny as the rest the population. IMO the problem is that many carers of the disabled and those disabled people that can advocate for themselves think that theirs is the only voice that should be heard/ has value/ has a relevant perspective because of the favour they are doing society. I believe it's a two way street where for some people's gratitude has been replaced by a distorted sense of entitlement, and a lack of personal accountability. Ironically the same behaviours wealthy tax avoiders are call out for

In world where the system is at breaking point they are not the only people that have it tough or need help.

Don’t think the poster would get banned or anyone would bat an eye lid if someone said a trans person shouldn’t be alive on mumsnet 🤣🤣🤣

My main concernd are with your final conclusion.

There are lots of people who are diagnosed with either/both condition who do not meet the threshold for disability support. There are also some people who have a diagnosis (or would be diagnosed) who are very much doing the funding.

Secondly, with reasonable adjustments. The adjustments should be reasonable, and actually help. But also if it turns out half the population cant access a service, doesnt make sense to try and make it more accessible even if the cause is not a diahnosed disability. You will never hit perfection but some organisations looks like they never even occurred to them that a large chunk of people struggle. Its harder with employment as the business has to be profitable but even things like uk productivity is low, we work longer hours than some more productive economies, maybe we all need work like a Dane and suddenly half the reasonable adjustment arent needed.

So now we have to assume our sons are all sex offenders in-waiting and work really hard to de-programme them by the time they’re 18? 🤣

If you have a diagnosis for either condition then you are automatically considered disabled. This is very relevant under the Equality Act as it is a protected characteristic. You are literally viewed completely differently from a legal perspective once you have a diagnosis. It is a bit murkier when it comes to PIP and other benefits but ultimately having a diagnosis is a key piece of evidence when applying for these benefits. It would be very unlikely that you can qualify for PIP or DLA for ASD or ADHD traits if you don't have a diagnosis.

I agree completely about adapting the world as far as reasonably possible so that it actually suits most people. Unfortunately the process we have now works the opposite way where only those that are recognised as disabled have a right to request RAs and all too often colleagues are forced to accommodate these RAs even if they are struggling with their own responsibilities already. This approach only makes sense if we really did live in a binary world where there were disabled people and completely able bodied/NT people and there was no real overlap. We know this isn't the case so why is it seen as ableist to point this out and suggest that everybody's needs to be considered in any system and that being considered disabled doesn't actually mean you always have it harder than someone considered non disabled?

Life-changing I would agree with but in what way long-term - that is the question.

More than 1 in 10 American children are now diagnosed with ADHD and the number keeps going up year in year out.

How much of this is just normal behaviour being considered as problematic?
If a child is not excelling in school does this mean they are disabled?

Also how much of ADHD is due to the constant bombardment of information young people now endure thanks to smartphones, computer games, social media etc.

Most on-line games are designed to be addictive and to give instant gratification on a loop. Any child who spends hours gaming is going to have trouble focusing on schoolwork - these games train their brains to expect constant excitement /novelty and constant rewards. Then they have to sit quietly for hours in a boring classroom - who wouldn't be bored?

It's not rubbish to challenge this relatively new disorder by men in white coats that necessitates giving children brain-altering medication often for years with no knowledge of the long-term consequences on huge swathes of the population.

This is a social experiment by big Pharma whichever way you look at it.

Isn't that the case though?

After all, some mothers sons are rapists. We can't possibly know which ones will turn out that way. And I've yet to hear a mother say- oh yes, I did suspect he'd turn out to be a rapist all along.

I definitely work hard to program mine not to be a rapist.

This reads like conspiracy theory nonsense. I am in my mid 40s and my diagnosis was missed as I child. I was a classic presentation - disruptive in school, distracted, fidgety - but I was female so that was that. I grew into an adult with huge self esteem issues, underachieved and with depression, anxiety, OCD and poor social skills. My life could have been so different if I had been medicated early. Studies show that medicating children can actually resolve some of the brain differences by the time they are adults. I would absolutely medicate my child if they were diagnosed.

Fully agree and I have a son myself with no daughters.

20% of girls and 5% of boys are estimated to be victims of sexual assault while 15% of the perpetrators are still minors themselves with 13 being a peak age for sexual abusers (corresponding with the start of boys' sexual activity).

https://victimsofcrime.org/child-sexual-abuse-statistics/

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sxl-rcdvsm-cmprsn/index-en.aspx

Rape is not rare - it's pervasive and needs to tackled at every level of society.

Exactly.

Rape is as old as the hills and present in every single earth culture. To some extent, its in all of us. A hangover from when we were apes and access to females was a resource.

Thats obviously not to excuse a single rape, every single male is responsible for not raping every single female. But I dont think we should be complacent with our sons.