To not understand people who talk about being the first in their family to go to uni like it’s a badge of honour?

[Kyrgyzstan]

Sorry if this sounds dismissive of their achievements but isn’t it less of a rags to riches tale of personal achievement and more of a generational difference? I mean barely any of our parents generation went to university and now it’s pretty much expected if you want a half way decent job.

Obviously if you were raised by heroin addicts and managed to still get good grades and go off to uni that’s different but the children of ordinary parents who just didn’t go to university talking about it like a huge achievement sounds a little strange to me?

My parents weren’t heroin addicts, but my mother died when I was very young, under 10 and my father had a terminal illness. We were poor. There was pressure on me as I had to look after him and my younger siblings. After he died in my very early twenties I was able to pursue my education. I was the first to go to university in my family, not once, but three times, entirely funded by myself, working part time. I don’t shout it from the rooftops, but it was very very hard, especially the degree I did at a red brick university in a very prestigious subject. I stuck out like a sore thumb and was very much looked down upon by some of the other students (and a couple of the lecturers). A large number of them had at least one parent in the same profession and at the time I was there, around 80% of the students at the university were privately educated. I had no support, no money, no network a fairly crap school education behind me and a nagging voice in my head telling me I didn’t belong. I studiously ignored it, got a really good degree and have subsequently done very well in life, but the difficulties I faced were not only because I had no parents. They were around me not belonging in that social stratification, not being ‘polished’, having to work to fund my studies, not having folks who could help with my studies or give me a foot up into the workplace after uni and raging imposter syndrome. OP - if you don’t want to go to university, don’t, People with a degree aren’t better than those without, but don’t look down on those who have extra hurdles to get that education that for some is just expected. I only had my gran watch me graduate, she cried her eyes out. One of the happiest days of my life and even if I’m not enormously proud, she was and that’s enough for me.

I was the first in my family to go to university, in 1974, but it wasn't seen as a huge step forward in social mobility even then. DF was a pilot, DM a paediatric nurse and in their late teens (early 1950s) both professions were open to all, subject to interest and aptitude. My grandfather left school at 14 and swept the factory floor but eventually became head of engineering standards on the prototype Concordes built in Bristol.

Plenty of girls in my class became lawyers and accountants after A levels via 'articles'.

My parents instilled a firm work ethic in me and my siblings. Leave school and get a job... any job. They actually did not see office work as "real" jobs, so we all left school and went into things like shop work and office cleaning.
So when one of us bucked the trend and went to uni, it was something to celebrate.
My DM's side of the family is huge, and only 2 have gone to uni (and finished... I tried but failed). They are not all "living it up" on benefits though. They are just in low paid work, but they are happy and that is all that matters.

The % is misleading, as it has never been a % of the general popularion who went to uni. In some circles it would be 90%, and in others 1%. It still is. I went to uni in 1998, when ~25% of school leavers went on to higher education, but less than 4% went from my school. I had never met someone who had been to uni except for teachers. I had no idea what a "Russel group" uni was, or whether Paisley uni was better or worse than Edinbugh, and had no one to ask. I do think that is more of an achievement than for a middle class child raised to expect to go to uni by default.

There is a definite difference in my parent's generation between people who didn't go to uni because it was less common and they were mediocre students (but would have went today), and people who were top of their class, but expected to get a job and pay their way at 15 or 16. Those parents (my parents) get to take pride in sending their children to uni.

I think I’m more keen than most with my kids tbh as I say in their classes of 30 they and maybe 5/6 other kids are the only ones to do their homework. I don’t live in a nasty/poor place just a regular town and I don’t think it’s common to help kids with their school work in secondary school let alone a levels. It sounds like you are extremely dedicated and move in like minded circles which I think is great but I doubt it’s common in the wider world.

The last few months I was at college was done online because of Covid but I remember just before that the tutors were telling us about ucas points and unis etc I don’t think it’s forbidden knowledge only available if your parents went

Why are you ignoring what people are saying?
It is common in some groups to support your child’s education right up to GCSEs and A levels.
It means children in those groups are at an advantage compared to children whose parents aren’t as active in supporting their education whether that is through choice or ability.

This level of support is probably more common than you realise but you seem unwilling to acknowledge this because you are adamant that your experience is universal.

Yes, ucas information etc. is available online BUT online information alone is not the same as having parents or family members who have navigated that path before you. There is a significant amount of research on this which is why there is a specific focus on first generation students and other underrepresented groups.

I am sure it is common in some groups and is an advantage but are those groups big enough to have any effect on the average joes chances?

There may be some statistics out there but how honest parents would be when asked whether they help their kids with GCSEs/a levels is up for debate, whether they would downplay what they’ve done to help so it doesn’t seem like their child didn’t succeed from merit or exaggerate how they helped because they don’t want to sound like a bad parent.

Schools and LAs have the socioeconomic stats. I saw them when I was a PTC in a Scottish high school. There is a measurable impact.

What it means is those groups continue to have an advantage. That’s the point.
It means those groups continue to perform better academically, attend elite universities, study competitive courses, get high paying graduate jobs… and the cycle continues.
You dismiss this as though it’s not true but it’s a very well researched subject. It’s something I’ve been studying and researching for over 15 years!

As for the level of support given to children. You don’t seem to understand how research works and just how extensively this is researched - because it really makes a difference. It’s not just ‘some statistics’.

It’s a fact that back in the day barely any one went and now it’s expected if you want a half way decent job.

Er, no, that’s not a fact.

I think you are seriously underestimating the number of parents who are actually very invested in their children's education, OP.

These days, the "average Joe" will probably have quite a lot of parental involvement and support, and those who lack such support are in danger of being left behind.

It sounds like the engagement from parents at your children's school is very low, and you are just assuming that that's what parents are like everywhere. A lot of people on this thread are trying to tell you that this isn't the norm for them at all. You can choose to ignore that if you wish, but that won't change the facts and it won't help your children either.

It's clear that you have had some challenges in your own life - having a baby at 16 can't have been easy, and it perhaps got in the way of you fulfilling your true potential. You said that this wasn't your parents' fault, and I agree - I'm sure it wasn't their fault. But I don't think it was you fault either. However, I do think that the education level of your parents significantly increased the chances of you ending up with the outcomes that you ended up with, and that is borne out by the statistics.

You can change things for your own children. You might not have the degree certificate yet, but there is nothing to stop you from being that involved, engaged parent that fights to level the playing field for your children. They deserve it, don't they?

To step back and not get involved in curriculums, what's on them compared to exam papers, what you can do and go to at weekends, holidays which is fun but educational, getting a tutor so you have an outside opinion of what standard your child is at, and doing something about it.

It's exhausting. You will come across teachers who are amazing and some, not so much. You have to keep your child learning and loving learning despite the peer pressure, social media, disruptions, what to do that is right- you only get one shot.

You see, if you are not used to a parent doing this, it's hard for you. You have to remember to listen to reading, encourage, go to the library, seek out little outings. Turn the telly off on sat night and play scrabble instead. Not once, but lots of times. Chat about the world. Their part in it. It might be new to you, to have to be someone who openly cares and isn't scared to find out more, have a say, have an opinion. Lots of these mums go on committees :)

If you are working non stop, communting, worried about money, worried about your dh and his office crush, worried about your job, its easy to think fuck it and play on your phone whilst the kids watch telly or walk to school. Or make them and you miserabld because after a day of lessons no one wants to go home and do more sums:) you have to make it fun.

So yes, it's a big deal to be first. It's not just about going on the Internet and deciding. And pre Internet, the teachers decided. No one said ' come on, buck up, don't you want to go to uni?

Which was surprising, given the status of the school. The gate keeping was epidemic, now I look back.

I was the first in my family/generation to go to uni (well, it was a poly when I started and then became a post-95 uni) and I was and am bloody proud of it. I got a lot of stick from certain people for thinking I was better than them, they went to the University of Life, how I may have been clever but I had no common sense etc etc etc. It was tough and I felt really alienated. Now most of my siblings and cousin's kids have been to uni or are expected to go.

If you go to uni as an older (mature) student there are different barriers to overcome. Young people of 18-22 dont want to socialise with a person 20 years older. It would be like hanging out with your mum! So it can be a lonely and isolating experience unless you are very resiliant and at ease with your own company.

Mature undergraduates often find they have more in common with the postgrads and lecturers than they do the other students. They bring a range of skills from a former employment and a wealth of life experience that no 18 year old can compete with. Older students are often driven and hard working. They have confidence to debate and air their views in a way that the younger crowd can find intimidating. My personal tutor told me that I "terrified the other undergraduates" because I never missed a lecture or a tutorial and had always done the reading.

I know that I was very political, always getting myself co-opted onto committees and invited to events that were not intended for undergraduates. Or just showing up as of a right because I was older, and in a different social position. I knew no one was going to show me the door. In this way I learned a lot about the department, where the power bases lay, and who it was advantageous to hang out with. These contacts saw me in good stead when I was looking for a postgrad supervisor, competing for funding and other advantages. As an 18 year old I would never have had the confidence and self belief to network in that way had I attended uni at the age.

My parents' reading and writing might not have been good. It didn't mean they were drug abusers or beat their children. I was was well looked after and cared for by my parents. My parents went to a lot of trouble to hide their lack of education as they were ashamed about it though, for both of them, it wasn't their fault. If you had met them I don't think you would ever have suspected. They went on to become very comfortable financially - the detached house in a nice area and so on. They were proud of me and there is nothing wrong with that. They would not have been proud of a pregnant teenager - they would have thought me unbelievably stupid to have put myself in that position. I think the thing is that you have no idea about how difficult it is to do something that nobody in your family has ever done before or contemplated doing even if your parents aren't drunken drug abusers beating their children on a regular basis.

I can say most people I know don’t help their children with their GCSEs or a levels and you can say most people you know do but I suppose it is just our anecdotes.

Somebody a few pages back said 1 in 5 in England and 1 in 4 in Scotland are functionally illiterate and obviously there will be a lot of people who are literate who’s parents didn’t help but learnt solely through school (I like to think of myself as one of them let’s hope that poster from the other day doesn’t come back and nitpick my grammar though 😆).

I plan to help my kids as much as I can with their studies but I don’t think there are that many like us most just assume school is good enough, I probably would have thought the same but having a friend who works as a TA is actually what made me realise school isn’t good enough and the kids who practice reading every day at home are miles ahead

I think you are still missing the point.
Even though things have changed now and it’s more common to go it is still a huge achievement!
I was the first of a very large working class family to go to uni as a mature student in 00s, none of my siblings or cousins achieved a degree.
Our parents’ experiences and achievements will often shape their children’s future. My parents expected me to get a job at 16, I encouraged my children to continue their education to degree level, if that’s what they wanted to do and was in a position to support and help them with every aspect of that.
My siblings’ children left school at 16 to start employment, as they did.
Their experience is exactly the same as mine “back in the day”. That hasn’t changed in our family.
It will be interesting to see what happens with our grandchildren. My gc consider university education to be a normal opportunity as did their mum!
I agree that schools are more likely to encourage children towards further and higher education and it is very different now but the fact remains that many families will not expect their children to reach degree level and many children will not be able to achieve a degree but will still have an opportunity to have a successful career.
For those who are “first” it is still a huge achievement and can shape their whole family’s future.

@Kyrgyzstanbut what we’re saying isn’t based on anecdotes. It’s drawn from actual academic research.
As a country we spend £1.5 billion on tutors. That’s a lot of parents investing in their child’s education. We also know that it is wealthy families that are using tutors which means the educational attainment gap continues widen. This impacts future choices and opportunities.

It might not be common on your social circle to be actively involved in your child’s education but it is very common in certain groups. These are not small numbers. They’re significant enough to make a difference and perpetuate educational advantage.

I've only read the first few pages but OP clearly has a bee in her bonnet. Just because people are proud to have been the first in their family to go to uni, doesn't mean they're sneering at you for not having done so.

If you look on the higher education threads on here you’ll see the huge amount of input/scaffolding educated mc parents are giving.
There’s uni and uni. Realistically as a mature student with children in tow you’ll be limited to your local uni. This might be low ranked with poor employment prospects after. On paper it’s same degree as one from a top ranked uni but in terms of prospects it’s chalk and cheese.
An example would be I bumped into an acquaintance who said her dc was going to college to study law A level as local grammar 6th form didn’t offer it. The dc went on to study law at a local ex poly low ranked. Mum proud dc is doing law but chances of getting a job in legal profession slim. A switched on mum who had been to uni would have known dc’s best option was traditional academic A levels at the grammar 6th form and aiming for a top ranked traditional uni.

That's the point, though. It isn't just anecdotes and I'm not just basing my points on my own social circle, whereas you are.

I worked in the education sector for years, and I have also been volunteering for many years as a school governor and as the trustee for an educational charity. I have read a ton of research on this stuff.

It's great that you plan to help your kids as much as you possibly can, and I strongly encourage you to continue with this. It makes an enormous difference.

It was a massive achievement for me - my family absolutely forbid me from going so I left home very young just to be allowed to apply.

"Who do you think you are?" "Think you're better than us." "You're nothing special."

This thread has given me a little rethink btw I acknowledge there’s a fair share of people on here older than me and back in their day it was a big deal to be the first to go because uni wasn’t expected for most like it is now and there wasn’t as much info online like these days.
But these days I don’t think it’s hugely unusual to be the first in the family to go, I was the first one in my family to go to college but don’t see it as a big deal because college wasn’t as common back in my parents day. The only thing that stopped me going to uni was myself getting pregnant in year 11 I have all the stuff I need to go in a few years though and have heard the thing I want to do is popular with mature students and I shouldn’t be the oldest there (I know there was a comment saying I might feel weird being way older than everyone else) anyway I know a lot of people who went to uni the first in their family and it wasn’t a big deal college/sixth form tutors help with applying these days

Op, your thread really highlights how well society has pitched the working class against eachother. It’s so ironic that you’re a young mum who never went to uni, yet you think it’s outlandish that someone would feel pride for lifting themselves out of their born social circles.

It’s not just older generations. I am 34, don’t feel hugely proud of myself for going to uni but I DO feel hugely proud of my single mum who brought up 4 of us in a council house and defied the odds; having 4 adult children who all own their own houses, have been to university, have professional jobs, never been unemployed, not had children young etc.

Despite everything everyone’s said on this thread, you still think it’s open to everyone. And fwiw, college is no way comparable to a university degree.

I do think it’s open to anyone who wants it these days I acknowledge it was a big deal decades ago to be the first to go back before internet and the expectation of going when you finish college/sixth form if you got good grades.

Kids that have issues at home like drug addicted parents or neglect I think it’s an amazing achievement btw