Not to tell DH what I'll be discussing at couples therapy

[Artisanshoelace]

I'd like DH and I to visit a therapist together and he has reluctantly agreed on the condition that I tell him in advance, the points I'll be raising (ideally he wants a written list).

In order not to drip feed, I'd like to discuss DH's drinking...which is 6 to 7 bottles of wine and week. He is never abusive and doesn't drink in front of the children (late teens) but his drinking has caused issues with laziness and disruption at home...late meals, not helping around the home etc. Ive tried to tackle this gently but he becomes extremely defensive angry and argumentative when I do. He's not a stupid man so he knows his drinking is a factor in my wanting us to see a therapist.

Other things I'd like to discuss are that he wants me to sell a property I've inherited so that we can move to a larger home (we dont need) with a driveway as our current home is close to a city centre and only has street parking. I love our current house, parking has never been a real issue and im happy here. I want to rent out the property I've inherited and maybe deep down a desire to keep it comes from feeling that one day I might need a place of refuge from DH although the main motivation is that I don't want to move and he's nagging me to do so.

AIBU not to want to present him with a list of topics prior to seeing the therapist ? From experience he will just get angry if I do and start shouting about why my points are invalid.

Being able to go without alcohol for a few days doesn’t mean he isn’t an alcoholic. That is too simplistic. He will sound very convincing (because he believes it himself) that he drinks because he wants to. But that want has probably become a compulsion.

Are you prepared to make couples therapy an ultimatum? What will you do if he says no? If it is carry on as normal, he knows this so why should he change.

Yes, i am prepared to say that if he doesn't agree to at least try therapy i will need to rethink the marriage .... also that I want him to reduce his drinking considerably and the same applies....and I would mean both.
I'll watch what happens over the next six months as I know he may struggle to reduce his drinking overnight

From your updates especially about the anger and denial and how he is trying to control the situation I would agree don't go with him. Do individual therapy so you can get your own mind clearer and get legal advice asap as others have said. You don't want to look back at this period as a time you missed an opportunity to get out. I also don't think debating whether he is technically and alcohol or not is helpful. His alcohol is causing a lot of problems and a technical definition isn't really what you need. He is a problematic drinker who is not doing what he should be doing because of his alcohol

It’s not a work meeting with an agenda. The point is to have time to think about how you communicate and ways to improve that, not to tick boxes on a list.

Alternatively, say you’ll consider it for future sessions if for this one he will write a list of what he THINKS you are going to say and what worries him about therapy.

Don't drink with him. Seize this opportunity to concentrate on your own well being, concentrate on your fitness and friends and health and well being. Let him really see that you mean business and are putting yourself and your health FIRST. Shake it up a bit and try to get him to a couples dance class and if it is no, no, no, go yourself. Or whatever it is that you would love to get into.

Life is too short to go down with someone who is beginning to only care about themselves and their next drink.

Alcohol makes lovely people not nice people. He has a choice to make and if he refuses to make it, make sure it is his problem alone, not yours.

Tell him that he can find another therapist if he thinks this one is going to be against him. The therapy bit isn't negotiable. And the fact that he is reacting to the list that he asked for is proof that therapy is required

@Artisanshoelace, You sound very aware of where your relationship stands, as you said in your 2nd to last post, you would be prepared to move from your beloved home if he showed he cared about you enough. From what you have described he sounds like when you challenge him on his “faults” it becomes a competition, a list of your faults, angry, manipulative & you feel undermined as you cant find the words to defend yourself. This is very frequently the case in EA. One partner is dominant & undermines the other’s self confidence.
I imagine he is jolly & helpful for other “onlookers”, family & friends, but rarely for you ?

I would however press on, & say everyone has their failures, but I am specifically worried about X Y Z. If you cant accept and least consider that these issues are real to me, I will be going to see someone for myself, to see how I feel about remaining unheard.

Therapy for him is being judged, He doesn't want criticism. He is just dandy living his life as is. You are to there make him look the part.
This is why he says the therapist will be on your side. Big boy has no interest in changing. Accepting he is wrong. or taking responsibility for his actions

I don’t think refusing to share the reasons will work productively for your therapy. If the reason you won’t tell him is because you don’t trust him to actually turn up or engage productively with the topics if he’s “prepared”, the therapy is pretty much doomed from the start. Catching him on the back foot won’t suddenly make him any more honest and reasonable about the issues. It will just make him defensive and be less productive.

Oh OP, the fact that he can abstain from alcohol doesn’t mean he’s not an alcoholic. I’m an alcoholic and went months at a time sober… the issue was that when I did start drinking again I couldn’t limit myself. Being able to stop doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. At AA many consider the threshold for alcoholism to be whether it negatively impacts you and those around you when you drink. Which his does.

He’s also abusive to you when you bring up his drinking. That’s a big flashing sign of an alcoholic because he’s defensive because you’re endangering his ability to drink. He doesn’t want that because above all other things he wants to drink alcohol.

Definitely go to Al-Anon. You having wine every so often doesn’t mean you can’t join.

I am going to go against the grain here. It sounds to me that you want to take him to couples therapy to change him and you are seeing him as the cause of all the problems in the relationship. Couples therapy is never about only one person being the problem - you are both involved in the dynamic and it sounds as if the dynamic is you as critic/judge/blamer and him as feeling blamed/defensive/deflecting. The alcohol may be related to this as drinking too much can be a way of getting relief from unbearable feelings of being unworthy and responsible for other people's feelings. 6 or 7 bottles of wine a week is heavy drinking for sure, but it's also not that far away from the realm of what a lot of middle class people in certain professions drink. You say he wants you to sell your inheritance for the marriage - not an unreasonable request in a happy marriage where both parties are working together towards a shared goal. You have different goals but that doesn't make his automatically unreasonable. He wanted to know the 'list' because he wanted to know what he was going to be charged with in what he sees as an unfair court where he will be prosecuted, tried and convicted without a jury. I think you need to look deep - do you want to save this marriage or not? If so, you will need to look at your own behaviour as well as his. You may need to back off from criticising him all the time to trying to understand him more to develop some emotional intimacy. As he starts to feel less blamed/judged he may start to be more open to explore your marriage problems in a mutual way. I think you could try again with couples counselling but make it clear to him that counselling is not about blame and that it is about both of you, and let him choose the therapist so he feels comfortable with the person. Perhaps a male therapist would be the way forward.

@Owly11 If his excessive drinking is causing problems in the family, then OP asking him to cut down is not "criticising him all the time". It's a perfectly reasonable request, an essential one in fact.

You say she should "look at her own behaviour", but as far as I can see, her behaviour has mostly been meekly acquiescing to her DH because he gets angry and shouts whenever he doesn't get his own way, and she doesn't like arguments.

OP, I think you should arrange for therapy on your own, to pick apart your complicated feelings about your relationship, and to help you see a way out if that's the way you decide to go.

Your DH clearly sees therapy sessions as a battleground where he has to "win". That's only going to make things worse.

OP, you desperately need to educate yourself about alcoholism if you think not drinking for a few days negates it.

He is an alcoholic and the likelihood of severe health problems could result in you being a carer to an abusive alcoholic.

I think you are going to be very surprised at how your children will review their childhood.

It certainly won't be without telling you that it was an Alcoholic home and all the hidden trauma that inflicts on children.

Don't fall for false promises.
Get legal advice so you and the children can be financially secure while he is still working.

Leaving him as a sick Alcoholic would make a divorce more complex.

Go visit your GP and ask theif view on his 7-9 bottles a week.

I love my wine, I drink every weekend and what you describe is total Alcoholic drinking, which he has done for decades.

His health could turn any time, and where will you be left?

Six months to see how things go is fine Op but don't let it drag on too long if he doesn't change. Too much drinking can cause a sudden dramatic health problem, if that happens you'll be more likely to get emotionally blackmailed into staying

I think it’s time to say that.

Why not tell him that if he doesn't stop drinking or cut down that you intend to seriously consider leaving and want to keep the inherited house to move to?
Why do you need a therapist since that appears to be the situation?
BTW I don't think letting the house is a realistic option if you think you might want to move to it, once you have a tenant it will be a long haul to get the house empty - and do you really want the hassle of being a landlord given you probably have a busy family life? I would sell it and keep the money safe in your name (perhaps for deposits for the DC later).
PS IME most counsellors/therapists are not particularly helpful, and I have seen several, so I am cynical about the commonly held belief that counselling is a solution to life problems.

Just read the updates, he does not want to stop drinking, and does not intend to stop drinking and therefore will not stop drinking. Just give him the ultimatum instead of plodding on for months.

One way to protect inherited assets (current rules, could change in budget) is a deed of variation passing part or all of your inheritance directly to your DC, see a solicitor for advice - there is a time limit.

Do not sell your property and if you let it out keep any money you make separate in an account in just your name. In the case if a possible future divorce that is very important. Inheritance does not get shared in a divorce providing it has already been separate and not merged with marital money in joint bank account.

I'm not sure any reputable therapist would continue to see a couple after an initial session made it clear that one of them was an alcoholic, any more than they would if the relationship was abusive.

Maybe not give him a written list but given the agreement was he’d go if you tell him the things being discussed he’s within his rights to ask what you’re bringing up.

I’m not saying that approach is right but you did agree to it, or at least I assume you did from your post.

Protect your property. He plainly wants to ensure that you don’t.

Random legal page advice, but you do need a solicitor :

https://www.bowcockpursaill.co.uk/news-blog/how-to-protect-inheritance-during-divorce-proceedings/

Don't agree to a written list!!! Typically, the conversations will be free-ranging depending on what is uncovered in each session based on BOTH of your contributions and observations. You can't control or predict what will be raised so dismiss the expectation that she conversation can or will be limited to specific issues. That's simply not how therapy works, especially with more than one patient.

Normally I'd say yes, DO recap for him verbally the broad concerns that you have and ask him to do the same for you. Focus on how the behaviour or the situation negatively impacts you/the relationship, rather than just saying it's wrong of him to do it. But this: From experience he will just get angry if I do and start shouting about why my points are invalid is worrying; can you agree to sit down together at a convenient time and go through the issues each of you wants to raise, with the advanced agreement that you don't expect to solve these issues during that conversation (that's what the therapy is for) but just to make sure you both have a clear idea of why the therapy is needed? Maybe agree in advance to hear each other out fully without interrupting or raising voices?

If he CANNOT discuss differences of opinion or disagreements with you without shouting and going into denial, it's worth reconsidering the therapy. If he recognises that his yelling and non-communication are a problem and wants help, the couples therapy MIGHT help but it's also possible that therapy for his own issues would be a better first step. In a case where there's a pattern of emotional abuse (I'm not saying that's the case here, but if he always yells and denies when the two of you disagree, or if he's making it so uncomfortable that you hesitate to communicate honestly with him/raise issues that are important to you, or he's bullying you over things like the property sale when you've clearly said no then it's worth considering), couples therapy is typically discouraged and a good therapist may not continue.

Tell him that you now want to discuss the fact he is being controlling by asking for a list in advance, in addition to the other stuff that you are perfectly entitled not to talk to him about outside of a therapy session.

See a solicitor and protect the inheritance for now. That will give you a) time to observe your marriage objectively and get therapy with or without him. b) you can change your mind and unravel the arrangement to keep it separate later.

When all that's done, you can pursue couples counselling and if necessary tell him exactly why you have separated assets because you are not confident that the marriage is going to last.

I actually agree that 6 bottles of wine isn't much more than many people drink....he never appears drunk and i dont think he is, probably because he has such a high tolerance level.

However I disagree that selling the inherited house would be for the good of the marriage...we have a perfectly okay home as it is...DH just wants a much, much larger property with a driveway...as where we are at present isn't too small at home and the children will be leaving for uni soon I dont think im in the wrong to question this.