To think gentle parenting has made some kids unbearable to be around?

[KindButFirmFox]

Boundaries aren’t oppression.
Sometimes “gentle” just looks like “ineffective”.

AIBU to think balance has been lost between empathy and discipline?

100%

My relatives child is a grade A dick. Has NEVER been told NO and is consistently defiant and difficult to be around.

I’d still include it in gentle parenting, it sets boundaries and you just can’t reason with very young children when emotions fly high.

Genuine question - do you think you are being clever by framing the question disingenously? Or do you find it unbearable that you are wrong about ineffective parenting and this is your way of trying to ease that discomfort?

As you know, it is not (at all) clear and consistent boundaries that are the issue but how they are implemented, the reaction to the child ignoring them, and the real world and real life way that affects other people who also have rights and have their own lives to live and do not and should not centre your child in the universe.

Don't keep coming at me with sticky fingered logical fallacies, I cannot stand that sort of disingenous behaviour.

Read the articles which explain why it doesn't work if you are genuinely interested in learning.

So, she's 3? It's completely developmentally normal for them not to apologise easily at 3. Like everything else it's child dependent. My youngest at 4.5 happily says sorry, my eldest (ASD so struggles with social demands among other things) finds it very hard. He feels awful when he upsets someone and will get very upset at himself. Then needs to calm down before he can apologise and repair. There's a great wee Daniel tiger episode where they sing a wee song about saying 'im sorry and then how can I help'so quite often he'll try to repair an argument with his sister by making or bringing her something to say sorry.

He's 7.5 so now he says sorry and tried to make up for upset if he's caused it. By you modelling saying sorry and explaining why we say sorry kids just naturally learnt to do it over time. It's a social skill.

Your friends TODDLER struggles to say sorry is not something kind of parenting failing

How do you address it if/when your child hits?

I’m a single parent and I don’t consider myself a particularly good parent. Often dealing with overwhelm, selfish, lazy and emotionally tapped out.

However, perhaps this debate is a red herring. Does it not come down quite simply to the way the parents behave in front of the child? Do children not pick up so much more about culture and values from all the many acts and behaviours that occur outside of times when the child is being disciplined?

Gentle parenting is not authorittive parenting, they are not the same thing. Please stop parading your misconceptions through this thread.

Why should the public have to put up with tantrums, screaming and kids being disruptive if you are in a restaurant or cafe then remove them, label whatever parenting label you want but if they cant sit quietly then others dont have to hear it and yes I include my own in that

I mean, the name sounds as if it means permissive parenting. From what people say here, it sounds like it actually means parenting that can be pretty firm, but just without physical punishment.

I think this problem is a bit overstated, tbh. There have always been spoilt children, and most reach a point in life where they realise they're not going to get what they want unless they're strategic about it and knuckle down and behave like decent human beings.

Tbh if you look at the values we live by nowadays, unshakeable self-belief and the knack of self-promotion are likely to get you further than self-effacing obedience.

The meek will no longer inherit the earth, if it was ever thus. Nicely-behaved children brought up to prioritise the feelings of others above their own are likely to be eaten alive in this knackered-out world we've created for them. Arming your kids with a reasonable degree of confidence and entitlement may be the kindest thing you can do for them.

The US President offers an instructive example.

He HIT it?? How did you stop yourself from screaming at him???

Kids definitely absorb more from what they see than what they’re told. I just think the two things go hand in hand - modelling healthy behaviour and setting clear boundaries. When one is missing, especially the boundaries, kids often test limits more because they’re unsure where they actually are.

It means centering your child in the universe - without a hierarchy. Their feelings are just as important as your own, as a parent, and all other children's feelings- which sound fair until you realise it means if the child bashes someone else the child who was bashed is not more important than the basher in that moment. so instead of doing the normal, correct thing and demanding an apology of the basher and helping the bashed one the basher is still centred by the parent.

It means expecting others to be endlessly patient and not react in a human fashion.

It means you are never to simply take control as functional adult and say a firm NO because you know better than your child (even though you do).

It means a lot of time wasting, whispering commands and accomodating a lot of melt downs for children who grow up to believe that they are the most important person in any interaction.

I will be No True Scotsmanned for this too.

It's a bit of a cult mentality. You cannot get through to them.

Basically, gentle parenting is a way for ineffective parents who want their children to be raised as the centre of everyone's universe to excuse their choice to not raise a functional child who contributes well to society.

She's 4. And I just wondered that if her parents never encourage her to apologise how she'll learn to start doing it by herself. I never mentioned accusing anyone of parenting fails.

Isn't it often just idle parenting, when people can't be arsed to teach their kids how to behave and stick them in front of screens?

V.informative thread, genuinely interesting to read.

This!

I used to work in a gift shop and middle class parents would beg and plead with little Hugo or Matilda over the toys, and then say to their kids in desperation "daaaarling, that's not for sale" or "that toy belongs to that lady" (me!) or even bribe them with something else rather than just tell them no.

The working class parents just said "don't ask for tat, it's expensive" with no fuss, they just kept walking.

Like lots of things I think it’s about degree. I haven’t read up on what gentle parenting is actually meant to be, but no doubt some elements of a more gentle approach are an improvement upon how past generations were parented. For example, awareness of mental health (within reason) linked to behavioural choices, and discussions around this where necessary. Nonetheless, some of the firmer boundaries that were much more common in the past now seem much less so and I see the negative consequences of this in children I teach. It’s incredibly common for parents to back their children in situations where they should be explaining why their behaviour is inappropriate and giving some form of consequence.

It is difficult to strike the right balance, I think.

As an example, I wasn’t explicitly taught to recognise a range of situations where I was genuinely at risk of harm or how to speak up about them, and I was probably taught to be slightly overly respectful of authority; that was mostly fine and got me far in lots of ways, but occasionally played out negatively as I lacked confidence in myself even as a young adult to challenge authority where it was wielded inappropriately.

That’s kind of what I mean. It’s not the idea of gentle that’s the issue, it’s how it’s often used as a cover for avoidance. Boundaries take effort, consistency and sometimes uncomfortable moments, which a lot of parents just don’t have the energy (or will) for. The result looks “gentle” but really it’s just passive.

I am not convinced children can take that in at a young age. Just tell them it’s wrong and not to do it and move on. The deep understanding seems OTT to me, especially with something like snatching. Also the other child needs to see that the problem was dealt with and we can all get over it. It’s no nonsense parenting 😆

If they've done something really naughty that they're old enough to know full well is wrong.

What would be naughty enough to justify physical assault?

I think many people are getting gentle parenting and permissive/can't be arsed parenting mixed up.
I think I gentle parent my DD. There are very clear boundaries in place and consequences communicated. She knows that if she acts up in a restaurant or supermarket, then we will leave immediately (she knows this because we had to do it once, and we haven't had to do it again). She knows that if she wants to be taken places, she has to behave. She also knows that an answer from me is as good as an answer from her father, and vice versa. The difference between how my parents did things and how I do things, is that I don't shout and scream, and I explain the reasoning behind my decisions, and I don't resort to physical violence.
But maybe I am not in fact gentle parenting, I just call it that because I don't do things the way my parents did. I certainly don't do things the way @Bluebearbum describes the way that parent does things. Absolutely not, my child would be told to apologise and not to snatch again, or we leave. She wouldn't dream of stomping crumbs into carpet.

This is not at all the same as permissive/can't be arsed parenting! That type of parenting has produced some right little horrors and I worry for them as they reach adulthood and try to function in a workplace, living with other people etc.

There have always been and will always be shit parents.

Wilfully destroying expensive property would be an example, I guess. And I don't consider a smack on the bum when dealing with a really naughty child to be assault. I wouldn't do it hard, just enough to shock them.

I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd have smacked them in extreme circs.

The law actually does allow it under Reasonable Punishment, defined as "the injury is "transient and trifling" and amounts to no more than temporary reddening of the skin."

ETA: I agree it does seem awful to smack a child, but some children are REALLY naughty, won't listen, and need to be brought up short. And I would only do it on the behind, and within the parameters above. And only in extremis. I think that's OK.