To not agree to pretend to my company that I don’t know what a man or woman is?

[Grain25]

My company has held a big team meeting this afternoon to bollock us because we haven’t been following their guidance that in our notes we refer to everyone as ‘they’ and ‘them’ unless we’ve explicitly asked if they identify as a man or woman and what their pronouns are.

It is grammatically and logically ridiculous.

They want me to pretend I don’t know if a male voice with the name Michael is a man and a female voice named Susan is a woman. They want no he/she in the notes unless we confirm with the aforementioned Michael and Susan that they are indeed a man and woman, which would make me look quite mad.

They have tried to conflate it with not assuming a married Michael is married to a woman, and that Susan is married to a man. This is completely right and proper and I hope I wouldn’t assume this.

AIBU to simply not change my notes?

I really struggle to get upset about this issue any more

I'd tell them it does not align with my religious beliefs which are a protected characteristic under the Equality Act. Trans ideology is not a protected characteristic and if they would like to discuss it in an employment tribunal for constructive dismissal, I'd be happy to oblige and hand in my notice.

Im not sure that it is outside the realms of possibility, otherwise it would be a non issue. If it was me, I'd quietly seeth at the lunacy but comply nevertheless as they employ you to do a job and to do it how they want it done.

@Megifer trouble with that is the ‘Stated…’ sentence ends up not being clear whether it is JP who stated it or the professional in the meeting.

I do use neutral pronouns much more than I used to, it is a compromise I’m very willing to make (though I will also use preferred pronouns if provided which I know not all will). However, I will not compromise on clarity so if I’m in a meeting of more than two people clarity may require using sex-based pronouns (though I don’t assume it will).

I’m not going to proactively ask people what pronouns they use because I work with people with aphasia (language problems) and it would be a huge increase in the cognitive demand on them plus a waste of their time. My profession is all in on this nonsense but at the moment I am still able to exercise my professional judgment.

I would use your judgment and, if you read someone else’s note where the use of neutral pronouns means you are not sure what happened, ask them about what they meant.

God I hate this kind of rubbish, you are male or female, end of, if you want to identify as a tree or a rabbits arsehole that’s up to you, but you are still male or female

It does sound a bit silly, but it isn't a hill I would die on either.

I have definitely had names I wasn't sure about in the past; unisex shortenings like Sam and Alex for example and also names with which I am just not familiar.

I just got round it by changing my wording. Didn't need to use they / them. Tbh, some people could take umbridge at being made into a they / them, so it is more polite (to me) to avoid pronouns altogether where possible.

Surely if you disobey a direct order you will be disciplined? 'They' and 'them' are often used as a third person singular pronouns.

I would assume either:

You don’t know whether your postie is male or female
You don’t know whether your doctor is male or female

Or that you are using plural pronouns to prove a point or conceal their sex for some obscure reason.

This is excellent! I also agree that I, as a woman, wish to be referred to as 'she' and not 'they', and that I would feel my identity is being eroded by this.

I agree the easiest option is just to minimise pronouns altogether. Bullet points can help -

‘JP stated -
concerned about internet access
will contact helpline if needed.

MA stated -

• episode now complete
• referring on to service X.’

Plan
-MA to refer pt to service X
-Discharge’

Id definitely ask the client and (as you're looking to move on) make it clear why.

"Dave, the powers that be want me to check what your pronouns are"

Best case, is that Dave asks to go by "she/her".

I always find these questions so disingenuous, as if Mumsnet is going to come out and say "No, using they is fine. Pronouns don't matter." Anyone who has been on here more than 5 minutes knows they will be told the ANBU

Totally agree. I’m sick of all of it. Them/they grammatically to me means more than one person for a start off. I’m a woman, a female, a mother, I breastfed, the list goes on. I would never in a million use tolerate being referred to as a ‘chest feeding person’ either. 🤦🏻‍♀️

This must be least informed, most incompetent and least busy HR department in the country.

I’m astonished that they actually called an employee to their office, in person, to demand something this must know they cannot in law compel you to provide.

Surely they have other things to be doing.

OP I’d be considering the purpose of the note taking, and the benefit to clients in whether to challenge this.

Is accuracy of the notes something that might be depended on in court?

How important is a clear understanding to the purpose of the notes?

Do the clients see the notes? Could they be confused or worried by misunderstandings in their notes?

You’ll presumably have to comply with SOPs, but I’d be asking who benefits from the change, and who is disadvantaged (if anyone) by it.

If you can demonstrate that there is little benefit and potential harm then You will have a more effective challenge.

In the UK, employers cannot legally force employees to use specific pronouns if doing so conflicts with their protected beliefs. Under the Equality Act 2010. This means your employer must respect your philosophical or religious beliefs, as long as you act professionally and do not harass or intimidate colleagues.

Another couple of options to throw into the mix:

Compliant: write up your notes as normal then ask AI to change it all to neutral pronouns.

Malicious compliance: Depending on the people you're asking you might be able to have some fun. "The company wants me to check everyone's pronouns and use them in my notes - I've heard some people have come up with funny ones like fed/up or drama/llama" if they play along I'm sure the company would get fed up.

I hate bad grammar. Then/ they/ their as singular pronouns do not make sense. It’s as simple as that!

I think the wfh dynamic is giving more licence to this nonsense. If this was introduced at a large meeting or conference people would probably start laughing and raise hands to present these different scenarios, highlighting the madness of it all.

Has anyone ever come up with rubbish pronouns and been allowed? or is it only they/them that is permitted (which of course goes against the whole point of choosing pronouns). I'd like to challenge them and ask to referred to as it/its or our/ours just to see if it sticks and to annoy HR. Or better still, say I don't agree with pronouns as a concept and would like to be referred to as my chosen nickname only - 'spiderman' , 'toilet roll' etc

I work in the NHS and have absolutely refused to collude with any of this bullshit. They can't sack me for this so they can get stuffed.

Best thing to do is change them every day and make HR go through the nonsense and be hugely offended when they try to suggest you're taking the piss...and quite their policies at them.

The grammar thing. I think they and their is fine if you don't know the sex.

For example
P1) I saw Sam the other day in hospital
P2) oh, are they okay?
P1) yes, he was just visiting his aunt
What would you use?

Thats fine, but then in the normal world you wouldn’t carry on referring to Sam as they.

But why would someone be saying they had seen Sam in hospital if the other person didn’t already know who Sam was?

It’s over-thinking it. Most people either know a ‘Sam’ or ‘Tony/i’ or whoever well enough to know their sex. If speaking face to face it’s obvious 99% of the time. If really unsure in conversation or over email I would double check by asking: can I just double check if that’s Samantha of Samuel? As people have managed to navigate using common sense easily for years before all this nonsense started. I actually have a gender neutral abbreviated first name myself, but my Mrs is part of my email, so it’s obvious.