To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

[reallyreallycrazy]

Slight hyperbole but not far off.

Yes, of course I suppose my DS should be appreciative of his 'white privilege' (I do detest the term though), but he's been applying to over 100 x spring & summer internships and apprenticeships.

Invariably, he finds that lots of programmes are only open to black/female/social mobility/ND candidates. In one recent case - a global consultancy - there were NO openings for anyone outside of these categories.

And today, on LinkedIn, he forwarded me several links from leading banks reaching out about apprenticeships etc. In most photos, you might be lucky to spot 1-2 white males and in the video of one, there were not a single white male (or female for that matter).

I get that these firms need to do outreach to disadvantaged groups but if you look at the population level percentage of the various group categories, this really has swung too far the other way.

I get that many of these organisations have years to catch up with diversity hires but to try to rebalance in such an aggressive way and in a short space of time, makes it very difficult for young, white males (unless they have qualified for 'free school meals') to get a foot in the door which is especially tough in an incredibly tough grad market as it is.

Yes. Such approaches approve the diversity stats which can be important in the relevant company securing certain lucrative private panels or contracts or in securing government work. However if you look at the upper echelons of management in these companies you’ll find that the diversity isn’t reflected further up! It’s all form over substance.

I do agree to an extent, I am all for the outreach into different groups but at the moment it seems that there are no other opportunities. My son applied for various summer internships, didn't even get a reply and the finance one he went for someone said that if we were on free school meals he would have got on. Yet we aren't a family who can compete with the privately educated elected, or are just normal people and purple kids seem to miss out as they are not one or the other.

Your son has every door open to him

This clearly isn’t true as OP is complaining about closed doors. But the more general point is these DEI initiatives look at the population, not the individual. There are plenty of very privileged people in ethnic minority groups, and more and more with contacts. So while you might think ‘yeah, my diversity initiative is bringing in oppressed individuals’, you might still be recruiting just very privileged individuals with parents with professional backgrounds etc.

I also noted a PP mention ‘inner city’ as a measure of disadvantage - yet cities offer a lot more advantages than someone living in the Welsh Valleys, Blackpool or Clacton. London has better state schools, museums, libraries, opportunities to see and get involved in outreach schemes etc., or even just seeing ‘how the other half live’ and the ambition that can bring.

We were hoping for someone better than competent!!! But actually, yes, it was a high specialised role and unfortunately the woman we eventually hired has underperformed.

What I would have liked to have done would be to hire the candidate we considered that would do the best job.

It’s a bit misleading to say “inner city”. Companies have local outreach and partnerships with their local community but to indicate that they’re picking through secondary schools to find the poor purely on the basis it isn’t a private school so must be populated with paupers is really misapplying the point of these partnerships.

most companies would use a mix of criteria to identify disadvantage- post code and parents education level being common ones.

So you’re applying an incredibly unusual situation to normal employed life.

you know that the vast majority of jobs we aren’t scrambling around to find women who could perform.

if you company really cared they’d be looking at grass roots to capture women early on and developed from within ie apprenticeships. Not throwing their hands up saying may as well just hire the few shit women who got into the profession

You’re very welcome. If it’s an option, offering to do an unpaid internship / apprenticeship is also another way to get his foot in the door.

FWIW, I wouldn’t describe your DS as privileged, it sounds like you and your DH worked hard to help him get an easier start in life.

There is quite a bit of irony with the use of the word ‘privilege’ these days - with it generally meaning that those who are ethnically white are almost by default privileged (patently untrue).

In contrast, I know that my background very much is, as that of my peers, and a lot of us are not white. I had an upper-middle class upbringing with highly educated professional parents and grandparents. My parents and I went to Ivy League schools in the US and their equivalent in the UK. So I should never have been (and thankfully never was) a DEI hire because that would have been wrong.

So why do you think their applicants were white if not class, education or Oxbridge?

I think there is some confusion amongst some posters - I don't think we are yet at equality, it is equity that these schemes promote and they are almost always in addition to the general recruiting rounds (I speak from extensive global management consultancy experience and not finance). I used to host an event every single month for new joiners over the last two years and there are plenty white men knocking about.

I do agree about white working class boys/men, but that is a societal issue that needs addressing - it is about role models, mentors, recognising the value of education, breaking cycles. That is far, far bigger than the corporate world alone (though playing their part helps).

So one company is running a couple of scheme at present that your son can’t apply to (and you have not looked at any of the other posts they have offered over the whole year) and your reaction is to start a MN post To think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates” which you describe as only “slight” hyperbole? Do you really not see how that comes across?

If your son has applied for over 100 posts as you set out in your OP, then that demonstrates that a) he has not been precluded from applying from many, many, roles and b) he isn’t as good as the other candidates.

I understand that it must be hard to see your son applying and failing. As a mother, I’m sure I’d feel sad too. But to suggest it’s some form of reverse racism, classicism or sexism and blame it on the few schemes that attempt to get the best possible candidates from a pool of untapped talent is awful. I re-iterate, these companies care only about profit; there is no way they would run these schemes if they didn’t think it would help get them the best possible personnel. They are hired for those roles despite the disadvantage they suffer, not because of it. Your attitude is deeply depressing.

I work in a company that runs one of these types of schemes. The issue is, we were getting literally thousands of applications for a small number of places. The scheme was hugely onerous for those involved in shortlisting and it felt unfair to applicants taking time to apply with so little chance of success. Also the resulting hires were not diverse at all. We ended up taking a decision to restrict it to particular demographic groups who were underrepresented in the company. This improved the operation of the scheme and had a positive impact on the pipeline of permanent hires into the company. So while I understand your disappointment on behalf of your son, I can also see the other side.

But my point was these initiatives take place local to the companies, and companies are more likely to be in cities (with higher ethnic minority populations) than in provincial towns.

Our offices and industry is still stuffed to the gills with MC white men - does that re-assure you? The new hires for senior positions over the last year have been overwhelmingly white men from MC +’ background, and my new-ish white, male manager has just been given a huge promotion by other white men for - as far as I can tell- pulling off the suit trousers/white or blue shirt look very well and being able to talk incessantly about his Strava runs. His marathon training. His triathlon training.
Not an idea or creative thought to be found in his head TBH but he does sound and look like a ‘man in charge’

Your DS will be fine. Unless he has an unfortunate personality???

‘If your son has applied for over 100 posts as you set out in your OP, then that demonstrates that a) he has not been precluded from applying from many, many, roles and b) he isn’t as good as the other candidates.’

he also needs to look at what he’s applying for and actually decide whether or not he’s right or has the right skills for that role. AI is killing entry level professional jobs too… so there’s that.

I’m sure your son got where he is by merit, but there is so much discrimination against white, middle class applicants that anyone in his position is now often suspected of being a diversity hire. It’s the natural result of all the diversity hiring that definitely is taking place.

The poster I was responding to had said:

“Was it that other people didn't apply or did your company specifically select white Oxbridge (Oxbridge these days, btw, is actually really quite diverse) these candidates?”

we have already acknowledged that oxbridge isnt all white. We were discussing what selection criteria could’ve made these people rise to the top of the applicant list (as usual) and I suggested the privilege that got them to Oxbridge in the first place.

Dd was asked on a form what her parents did when she was 14. I suppose 14 was picked to weed out those who could say their parents were unemployed because they were retired!

As others have noted, it’s always a tool to bash the pesky middle classes. Too well off and ordinary to be “underprivileged” and nowhere near the sphere of private education and “contacts”.

Also, the posters sneering about Oxbridge… you do realise that most graduates now are from state schools? What is the point of working hard to get there, doing well and then being told by some DEI bod that “Oh no, you’ve now passed through the gates of privileged twitdom so therefore it is my pleasure to kick you back down” ?

Yes but I do think we’re mixing up “diversity hire” with these community partnerships.

community partnerships aren’t about hunting the poor. They are about the workforce reflecting the local area or the customer base.

ergo- a rich Indian person whose parents are Brain surgeons who lives in a 5 bed townhouse in Hackney and goes to the local comp being involved in community initiatives isn’t a failure of the partnership to “hunt the poor”

14 is more about the support she might’ve had through her own education - maybe she had parents who worked in Asda until their children left school at which time they got a degree and started working as a teacher. It doesn’t change that their children grew up without the professional support and resource the parent can now provide.

So you if you see a successful brown or black person you assume they are more likely to have got there as a diversity hire, than on merit? Because that is exactly the sort of racist thinking that schemes aimed at those students are needed to address - because some white people cannot fathom that we are just as clever and hard working as they are, let alone smarter or harder working. And so we (and women too) are hired at lower rates than white male candidates when posts are open to all, because of the assumptions inherent in racist and sexist thinking.

Sorry I missed this -

“Also, the posters sneering about Oxbridge… you do realise that most graduates now are from state schools? What is the point of working hard to get there, doing well and then being told by some DEI bod that “Oh no, you’ve now passed through the gates of privileged twitdom so therefore it is my pleasure to kick you back down” ?”

what does this mean? Most graduates are from state schools in the whole population of graduates?
Of course they are, 96% of the population are educated in state schools!

if you mean most graduates of Oxbridge are from state schools it would be good to see the stats

OP, do you have any idea how much harder life is for ethnic minorities or disabled people? They are just as intelligent as anyone else.

Also, neurodivergent people have skills that others don't have. GCHQ actively seeks out dyslexic (or was it ADHD?) staff members because they tend to be inately better at solving puzzles.

@Bambamhoohoo it’s a stupid question though as unless asked for proof people are bound to dumb down occupations! I told dd to just leave it blank, though if I remember rightly dh did have a period of unemployment at that time - kerching!

But then contradict yourself by saying that group isn’t exclusively white?

Or if we are smarter, it"s because we aren't well rounded, have no hobbies and work too hard. But if we don't work hard, we are incompetent diversity hires!

Catch 22.