To Think that Grad & Apprenticeships are now only for Diversity Candidates

[reallyreallycrazy]

Slight hyperbole but not far off.

Yes, of course I suppose my DS should be appreciative of his 'white privilege' (I do detest the term though), but he's been applying to over 100 x spring & summer internships and apprenticeships.

Invariably, he finds that lots of programmes are only open to black/female/social mobility/ND candidates. In one recent case - a global consultancy - there were NO openings for anyone outside of these categories.

And today, on LinkedIn, he forwarded me several links from leading banks reaching out about apprenticeships etc. In most photos, you might be lucky to spot 1-2 white males and in the video of one, there were not a single white male (or female for that matter).

I get that these firms need to do outreach to disadvantaged groups but if you look at the population level percentage of the various group categories, this really has swung too far the other way.

I get that many of these organisations have years to catch up with diversity hires but to try to rebalance in such an aggressive way and in a short space of time, makes it very difficult for young, white males (unless they have qualified for 'free school meals') to get a foot in the door which is especially tough in an incredibly tough grad market as it is.

That is dreadful. We should really prioritise British doctors who trained here.

Depends what you mean by senior role. I would say that Band 8a and above are senior in the NHS and it does not take 10 years plus to reach those roles.
Workforce planning is a whole other topic and boiling it down to "overseas people taking our jobs" may be easier narrative but the reality is far more complex

You’re in medicine and think men are not male?

What would you count as well represented? White doctors are under-represented in the NHS compared to the population.

Your son doesn’t need an internship as he’ll be ahead of others when applying for grad jobs after uni merely for being a white male. The internships are there to bring equally qualified minorities up to the same level of “privilege” as your son’s sex and race give him.

I agree with this post 100%. I am of the same vintage, from an era just before DEI took hold. I worked in investment banking in NY and London , as well as asset management. I was hired for my skills, perceived ability and degrees. I was not hired to fill a quota for a non-white hire.

DEI ostensibly started off as a means of ensuring an equality of opportunity, but has got twisted to equality of outcome, something it was never meant to be, because the latter results in inherently unfair hiring practices towards the majority.

As a separate matter, finding internships as an entry-level graduate in London (if that’s where your son is looking) in asset management, equity analyst/credit analyst and Tier 1 investment banking grad schemes is extremely challenging. This is regardless of ethnicity and sex. When you layer on DEI targets, it’s all the more challenging. I don’t dispute that. It can be very hard to hire a candidate that fits the bill in terms of the job, without very senior management stepping in and saying a female would be ‘ideal’ so that the firm can look ‘good’ for diversity factors.

I am a non-white woman and have held my own in a male-dominated industry and I’m frankly very happy I wasn’t born 20 years later. I can say this with 100% certainty , based on a decade of experience in the City, that a DEI push over the last 10-15 years has resulted in a large number of women working in senior investment roles, who a) likely would not have got the job if they weren’t female; and b) are very mediocre to bad in their jobs.

The emphasis on virtue signaling by large financial services firms has got worse in recent years (they don’t necessarily believe in it, they just don’t want headline risk) and so now a white female will stand a lower chance versus an equally or lower qualified non-white female. DEI is fast losing ground in the City, and also in big financial hubs like NY, but it will take time to get back to equilibrium; right now, it is very much out of balance.

OP, your son will find an internship, it may not be exactly what he wants, but my suggestion is, start in a lower name firm, get a little experience and then apply for the bulge brackets. Once you get a little experience under your belt, the DEI element reduces quite a bit in hiring decisions.

Your recruitment was very poor if you couldn’t manage to find a woman who could do the role regardless of the target to get one. Women are 50% of the population

Just asked DS. He says a few schemes prioritised women and those eligible for school meals( not us) but there are plenty available for everyone. He didn't come across any asking about ethnicity.

Overseas doctors are clearly taking UK doctor roles when they are allowed to compete with UK doctors on an equal basis. Every other country gives priority to their own citizens/residents. It is not complex at all - 10,000 uk FY2s applied for 10,000 specialist training places alongside 20,000 overseas doctors. Only 52% of UK FY2s manage to get a training place.

That is not a balanced post at all. You have just decided it is because someone who isn’t white has agreed with you. It’s the equivalent of Reform voters claiming the party isn’t racist because one or two deluded black and brown people support them.

I’m a brown women and wholly disagree with what the pp and you are saying. I have been involved in recruiting in my professional field for many years. First, while some posts like work experience are restricted to disadvantaged people, it is incredibly rare that actual jobs or graduate schemes are.

And the reason for work experience being given to disadvantaged and unrepresented groups? It’s because they have no other way of getting their foot in the door, because actual jobs are often set up in a way that makes it far harder for them to get them. Having the polish that comes from growing up with professional parents or going to private school offers a huge advantage in interviews over someone who was on free school meals and who didn’t socialise with other middle class people. But that polish makes no difference to how they actually perform in the role. Work experience gives them a small way of levelling up a little.

Just look at the world around you - mediocre white men have overinflated confidence and somehow rise to the top with far less talent than lots of others who simply don’t have the opportunities they had, despite being smarter and harder working. The work ethic and determination of some of the “diversity hires” I have seen far outstrips that of many white men; they had to work twice as hard to prove themselves if they come from a background where there is disadvantage.

They are a huge asset to the companies they join. THAT’s why companies run those programmes, they want to access the untapped talent. Do you really think companies whose first and foremost objective is profit, would run these programmes if it wasn’t helping them? It’s capitalism 101.

Your son has every door open to him, unlike those who come from backgrounds where they may have gone to school without enough to eat and still get all A*s, or have faced unconscious racism or sexism by teachers, or are refugees battling PTSD and uncertainty because of what they have suffered and still get firsts at top universities.

Perhaps you and he could take some time to consider that approaching applications with the attitude that being a white male is a disadvantage (and honestly, look around you to see how untrue that is) is what is preventing him from succeeding and maybe it would be worth considering that maybe he simply isn’t as good as the people he is applying against where those applications are open and he should work harder or build other skills. The world does not owe him a job, nor is it handing them out like sweets to “diversity hires”.

Still waiting for you to post what he wants to do so I can show you how many opportunities he can apply to, as a white male.

I know all of the Big 4 policies inside out, I can direct you to McKinsey’s and BCG’s programs, and I can also show you banking availability. All he’d be eligible for.

Actually I’m aware of several sizeable organisations that use AI for the first filter.

This means that privately educated persons or those without a protected characteristic — depending on settings - will never get further through the process , however otherwise meritorious.

Thank you. Only those with white kids are shouting “disadvantage” and can’t accept the reality of the situation.

I was DEI Champion and still had 95% white Oxbridge as our grad cohort. It was exhausting.

I just find you funny.

She couldn’t apply to the very few ones for disadvantaged students. Why didn’t she apply for the copious number for anyone? Stop using the few schemes to level up against the disadvantaged because your child wasn’t good enough.

I work in fintech consultancy. I am surrounded by privately-educated, white, middle-class men.

We recently advertised for a junior consultant role (not entry level - approx one year PQ) and, out of 250 applicants, NOT ONE was female. All male, and of that number, approximately 80% were privately educated.

The successful candidate was, as expected, a privately-educated, white, middle-class man. Quelle surprise.

Why was that though?

Was it that other people didn't apply or did your company specifically select white Oxbridge (Oxbridge these days, btw, is actually really quite diverse) these candidates?

Did you use psychometric (aptitude AND personality) assessments as part of the selection process?

Or was it that oxbridge candidates are more likely to be privately educated middle class and therefore confident in all aspects of corporate life?

We were recruiting for a specialised technical role where 70% of graduates are male and a postgraduate qualification was needed. Our existing team was 70% male, and so representative of the population with the required qualifications. Our new CEO decided that we had to be 50/50.

As there are only a few new staff per year and not many leave, the only way to meet the 'target' was for new hires to be almost exclusively female. And that is what we were told to do.

Using exactly your language - there must be a female who can do the job, so just hire them. Interview performance, qualifications, experience did not matter, only that they were the correct sex.

I never said I didn't agree with outreach programmes etc. And what was before needed rebalancing but maybe they need to look at the balancing of this and there are lots of outreach schemes not available to my son and he/we don't have an issue with that at all. Or contextualised offers - totally agree with that, or internships which is for certain groups.

But when one big firm didn't have a single opportunity he could apply for, yes, he felt a bit fed up, and I don't blame him.

I'm not from the UK myself, am working class (but went to uni) so know what you mean about people having that polish. But of course, a lot of people applying who are black/female etc do NOT come from inner city or poor backgrounds at all, but I appreciate it's a blunt tool and this will be better than not having it.

But, yes, it just was one day when it felt like he was hitting his head against the wall.

White students as a proportion of UK domiciled students are under-represented at Oxford. And across the student body as a whole, white new students became a minority at Oxbridge in 2023.

One point about FM, many schools do not offer it. If they don't you are more likely to be in an area with fewer staff and enough students to justify it. It just compounds disadvantage for some students.

Thank you so kind and so helpful.

Btw, I don't think that DEI is wrong, and I do think there definitely needed to be rebalancing as clearly it used to be (maybe still is) a bit of an 'old boys white network' (though if you're not familiar with that sort of background - which applies to all backgrounds and genders - it is still a tough one to enter).

My DS is very privileged, being white, male, middle class (working class parents who went to lower ranked unis) and private 6th form. But he still felt fed up. I'll share your advice about where to perhaps focus his efforts on i.e. not the big banks etc, and he always bounces back but that will really help. :)

@justnottinghill You are somewhat missing the point. They are advertised for everyone but in practice placements and apprenticeships are used to recruit from the minorities mentioned. This is done to balance the recruitment stats because they know standard recruitment will probably be skewed towards white middle class candidates.

As for any firm having 80% Oxbridge! A few barristers Chambers in London - who else? I doubt this is truthful. If it is, name and shame!

But what you’re saying is you can’t find a competent female? The only competent applicants just happen to be men?

Being privately educated and middle class isn’t exclusive to white people.
Why have you brought a stat about white people into it?