Schools admission criteria......

[LookingforMaryPoppins]

So, my youngest has her heart set on the same grammar school as her sister. She has worked hard and successfully passed the 11 plus. Really proud off her, she is dyslexic so no mean feat.... having just checked the admission criteria, having a sibling at the school makes no difference. Passing the 11 plus is the first criteria followed by children in care, pupil premium and then distance - she is bottom of the pile. If she doesn't get a place, which with that criteria is likely., the option is a sink failing school..... how is that fair?

I agree with this. There won't be that many pupils with pupil premium who will
a) want to go to Grammar school
b) pass the exam

Of course there are some people with low incomes who have high aspirations for their children, know enough about the system to prep their child including paying for workbooks or tutors and help their child pass. Unfortunately the vast majority of children receiving Pupil Premium are going to find that tougher. This slightly levels the playing field. If your child misses out, it is because you live too far away, not because of the huge numbers of PP and adopted kids stealing places.

You still have to apply for the grammar school on the common application form for secondary schools, which has to be in by the end of October. No one finds out until I believe March if their child has been accepted into the school if their choice.

The line has to be drawn somewhere but ime nobody gets in without tutoring so the PP child will not really be advantaged as such. Basically the system is horribly unfair because it depends on a) having parents with enough money for tutoring and b) having parents with enough knowledge about the education system to start to plan for an 11+ education in the first place and c) parents who care about education full stop. So many kids don’t have that, whether or not they are on PP.

The 11 plus system is inherently unfair and I have little sympathy for anyone trying to get a place. Where we are the kids are tutored to within an inch of their life. After school, weekends and holidays. Some privately, some in 11 plus centres, of which there are many.

Sounds like the School you have chosen is trying to even the playing field for those on FSM who perhaps come from a family who cannot afford all that extra tuition.

Either way, if your catchment school is so dire, why haven’t you applied to every grammar. For example if Kingston has one, why not apply to every one in Sutton too? That would have made far more sense.

It sounds as if your dd will likely get in tbh as the percentage of children in care/pupil premium will be low.

I am a teacher and have tutored 11+ in the past and really the amount of time and money that many middle class parents spend is shocking - tuition for several years, mock exams, resources, intensive holiday tuition, sitting with their child and talking them through the work/ensuring they understand homework. The fact that children in care/pupil premium are given very slight advantage in the criteria is to try and bring them to an equal level as those that have had all this advantage.

No grammar schools would take into account sibling attendance as they are purely focused on ensuring the most academic children gain entry. It is the risk you take when you send one child there,
not knowing if your subsequent children will gain entry.

I am not keen on the grammar schools system because it often leads to the other schools locally not offering a good education as the parents that are invested in their children’s education put so much effort into getting their children into the selective schools and great teachers being attracted to these schools, it leads to the others becoming ‘sink’ schools.

Independent schools have only ever been in the reach of a very small minority of people your post is wildly inaccurate to suggest it was every not so.

Pupil Premium students and those in LAC are a very vulnerable group who statistically achieve lower outcomes then their peers. By placing them at the top of the admission policy is an attempt to remove some of this disadvantage. Your privilege and sense of entitlement shines through in your posts. Realistically how many PP or LAC students to you perceive to be “stealing” the places from people like you who you, for some reason have decided are more deserving?

I'm in 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 where we only have state and private, had to google Pupil Premium although I assumed it referred to low income families with children entitled to free school meals.

Literally the opening gambit on the GOV UK website states that PP provides:

funding to improve educational outcomes for disadvantaged pupils in state-funded schools in England.

The funding criteria is based on eligibility for FSM and/or if a child has previously been looked after by state care/local authority.

So you're carping about kids who are or have been in care being given the occasional leg up (which in no way will likely compensate for what they've already been through).

You harp on about 'hard-working' families but there's reason to assume that every child on PP or who's been in care does NOT come from a 'hard-working family'. Even if there was such a correlation, surely the fact that YOUR child comes from a hard-working family is an advantage to them?

So, if it doesn't happen, why is there a priority for these children? And if it does happen, and the principle is fairness, why isn't the threshold high enough to encompass the majority of children who won't have the resources of a tutor?

This!
They will be closing grammar schools next because of the same reason they used to justify VAT of private education.
I do hope your child gets a place in the grammar school @LookingforMaryPoppins

Also, you say you live a train ride away... realistically, how many PP families are going to be able to afford the train fare so logically, these children applying are likely to be a lot closer than you to the school. So not really effecting your child's ranking

Who said it’s fairness? It’s an unfair system but with a small nod to trying to help the most deprived. While working parents who are working class can’t afford tutoring, their kids won’t be as socially disadvantaged as someone whose parent is on long term benefits. Also there needs to be some measure of deprivation because otherwise everyone would say they should qualify.

And @lessglittermoremud and @LookingforMaryPoppins

SORRY I stand corrected !!

hope this doesn’t distract from debate I can’t edit the post !

We're an 11+ area. Looked after/ previously looked after children or those with PP have always had a priority to help level their challenges in early education.
All have to 'pass' the 11+ but super selectives may ring fence a small number of places with a slightly lower cut off for LAC/PP. All have LAC/PP as top criteria with ECHP.

The normal grammars all have sibling priority. Obviously the super selectives don't.
Falling birth rates have enlarged catchments slightly over the previous 2/3 bulge years.
Look at distance criteria on offer day, after reallocation and in September. You will see offer distance increasing but you may have to sit it out on a waiting list

A child in DS’s last school (they’re in year 7 now) is in foster care and now goes to grammar school. Both her parents are alcoholics who failed her. DS didn’t want to sit the 11+, but I can’t imagine begrudging her a place over him.

I think we're getting to a point that is too far beyond the thread. (But you are probably unsurprised to hear that I'm not on board with that either) Anyway, I'll bow out here - but I appreciate you just chatting with me as opposed to using my opinion as a springboard for outrage.

If the admission rules have been the same for years, accept you should have checked a while ago.

OP check yourself…there will be very, very few children in care (probably none) and very very few pupil premium pupils who have achieved well enough to attend the school. It is a very sad statistic that these children don’t achieve as well as their peers.

if it’s anything like my local grammar, a few places will be taken by PP children, then the others rank from best to worst 11+ scores within the catchment and they will then be offered places based on that rather than distance.

Siblings absolutely shouldn’t be offered priority within grammars so that they can maintain their standards. That’s the whole point of them.

Normal families? Working? Do you think looked after children are not 'normal'? FFS they are often the ones who need a bit of a step up.

Grammars are unfair full stop.

I can’t believe that you think your daughter is on the ‘back foot’ over children in care or those who are, or have been, significantly economically disadvantaged. Think about what you’re saying.
The reason those criteria are in place is because children/ families in that target group are least represented in the application figures. It is to attempt to level the playing field for those children. How can you be angry about that?

Every child deserves excellent education, disadvantaged or not.

School places should NOT be a postcode lottery.

Reason why every year we see threads like this is because of the difference in standard of quality of schools for children.

Naturally as a parent you would want your child the best education.

The job of the DfE is to ensure all school provide this but they are failing because of they are not meeting the needs of the children through lack of funding. Their lack of funding means that schools are suffering and parents are being more selective because they want to give their children the best start in life. And now with private education is out of reach of many people because of the VAT- thanks Rachel Reeves, the competition for grammar schools has become wild. Although she wants to shut them down tho.

Do not blame the parents, go and complain to your MP because the decline of education is happening in front us and no one is complaining. The gov is happy to keep shouting out free breakfast clubs, but how is this improving the quality of education? Maybe if they didn’t tax people to bones and having to work from the crack of dawn then there wouldn’t be a need for breakfast clubs in the first place. They need to stop putting patches on the wounds and treat the problem that is causing all this in the first place.

Does the fact she has a sibling at the school not put her up the list, before they consider distance don’t they consider siblings?

There won’t be that many children in care/ PP. Unless it’s a really small school. If you are in catchment then you should be fine. You can look on the council website to see if it is your catchment school- if it is and you meet the criteria then you’re in. If you are out of catchment then it is less likely.

@LookingforMaryPoppins you are being ridiculous.
EVERY school I have looked at, grammar or secondary, prioritises DC in care, 'looked after' those with an EHCP etc.
This group of DC is not huge, they don't take up loads of places.

I would encourage you to look at the school admission criteria again.

My DC has just passed the Bucks 11+. His older sibling already attends the grammar school.
The admissions criteria is:
Pass 11+ with a score of 121+ (slightly less if you receive pupil premium)
DC who are in care /looked after/EHCP
DC of teachers.
DC living in catchment by 1st September BEFORE you take the exam
DC living in catchment with siblings already attending the school
After the above is applied then all further offers are determined by distance.

All the Bucks Grammar schools I have looked at have pretty similar admissions criteria.
Unless the entire year have siblings who live closer than us, my DC should be a shoe-in for the same school his sibling is at

Which Grammar school area are you in?

On the plus side your child isn’t in care or otherwise deprived. So there’s that.

Exactly this!!

I will bet the OP tutored her child and/or bought resources to help them pass the 11+. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have done that (I send my autistic child to a private grammar school as we don’t have any state grammars here and our local state comp can’t accommodate her needs so I definitely don’t judge!). But there’s not a chance in hell a child in care will have had the same 11+ support (emotionally or financially). Therefore, any child in care passing the 11+ should IMO take priority. The numbers of kids passing the 11+ in the LAC and PP categories are likely to be sooo small that I don’t think it will make much difference that they’ve changed the admissions criteria.

Equity and Equality are not the same thing OP. Surely you can see that a child in care or in a deprived household (meeting the incredibly low household income point for PP) passing the 11+ have achieved more than a child not in those circumstances?

Granted I do agree that a recognised condition like dyslexia also means the child has achieved more by passing but I’ve never seen any Admissions criteria include that kind of criteria (not even sure if they are legally allowed to).