Angry at house seller?

[perfectpotato]

Had our offer accepted, in the middle of the legal process and we’ve had got the fixtures and fittings form from the vendors.

They are taking with them all the column radiators (will be replacing with basic ones), all light fixtures - they had these beautiful sconce marble light fixtures that they will be taking and they are have a fixed mirror in the bathroom, has Bluetooth and different lighting and they are taking that too.

My partner doesn’t seem bothered but I’m really upset, Aibu?

The radiators and wired in mirror is unacceptable and I’d challenge that with the estate agent and solicitor.

Buying and selling attracts wankers in similar proportions. At least you have been given an indication that at the very least you need your own solicitor to be absolutely on the ball here.

Say what you find acceptable, ask lots of questions and be prepared to tell them to shove the house where the sun doesnt shine.

Why ? They are removable and are therefore not considered permanent fixtures. As long as the vendor replaces the radiators with standard ones and ensures everything is certified and in working order they have done nothing wrong. The responsibility was on OP to ask if these things were part of the house sale if she wanted them to be left.

The doors and windows can also easily be removed and replaced. Does that make it OK to remove quality ones and replace with cheap ones after a price has been agreed on the property?

The EPC isn’t solely based on the heating system. And the age and condition of the boiler is the deciding factor as long as the radiators are standard and have the same level of controls as the ones being taken out.

You'd be nuts if you don't check the doors are included!

I can't remember about windows, but doors and internal doors? Of course you check the ones staying are the ones you saw. The more expensive the door, the more carefully you check.

There are nutters everywhere, but it's unlikely most people will bother taking the cheap B&Q door with them

You make a reasonable statement. As reasonable as someone also saying they should have been made aware that they were not part of the sale in the first place. Still at this stage either party is still able to pull out.

I work in the motor industry. This feels like someone buying a £100k Mercedes with amazing 20" alloy wheels and when it comes to signing the order being told it still has 4 wheels but they are now 15" steel wheels . But dont worry they have been fitted by a qualified mechanic :-)

Change the fittings, change the price imo

That’s just daft. Windows are legally considered permanent structural fixtures, and are included in the price of the house, as is anything else permanently attached to the actual structure of the house. I’m speaking from actual experience as I’ve had this issue twice when buying homes which had very expensive and decorative radiators.

It was made perfectly clear by our solicitor on both occasions that radiators are fittings, not permanent structural fixtures. As long as the vendor indicates on the TA10 form that they will be removed, and replaces them with suitable standard radiators with similar controls which meet the current EPC rating, and make good any damage incurred in the process, they are not doing anything wrong. Caveat emptor means that the buyer is responsible for clarifying what is part of the house sale and what is not. If the vendor makes it clear on the TA10 what they are taking, then it’s up to the buyer to negotiate, accept or walk away.

except that the Mercedes will be advertised as having "20" alloy wheels".

The EA should not have advertised the property as including "column radiators" but sadly we all know that none of their advertisement has to be accurate or is legally biding. Thats wrong.

They even get away with advertising a house with a "bedroom" that is not legally a bedroom (access or whatever reasons make it unsuitable)

Still can't blame the seller for that, as long as they are accurate in their form, they haven't done anything wrong in the current system.

Yes of course the seller can take what they like if they disclose it and the buyer can accept or renegotiate but it is no easier to remove a radiator than a door. Either can be taken (or anything else). The seller could take the roof if they disclose it and the buyer agrees but the buyer would be mad to accept it without renegotiating the price.

Even trees can be excluded from the sale, I don't know why so many people "assume" everything is always included in the sale.

But there is no legal obligation for the seller to clarify what is part of the sale and what is not until the TA10 form is completed. At the viewing stage the responsibility lies with the buyer to clarify what is included with the sale and what is not before they make an offer. Fixtures which form part of the permanent structure of the house and cannot be removed are included in the actual value of the house. Fittings are not, so it doesn’t follow that a vendor would accept a lower offer based on what they are taking. Surveyors don’t base their opinion of the value of the house they are surveying on the fittings, the actual value is based on the structure of the house and the permanent fixtures which form part of that.

Mmmm, I agree that the radiators should have been flagged. To be honest I did the viewings on my house and did flag that the light would be removed.

I do think it’s bloody poor of people to do these things to get max price and then just mark that they will remove things on the fixtures and fittings form at a later date.

But as a buyer I would want reassurance surrounding what was going to happen and that it was all completed correctly. At least having someone registered do the work there is some ability to call them back if need be or complain to a trade organisation if necessary.

It’s interesting as I don’t really know where this would fall within the Material Information regulations that the seller provides to the agent as the stand now either. I guess the purchaser could query it with the agent and then the TPO if necessary.

Mental gymnastics. The value of the house is based on permanent fixtures forming the permanent structure of the house, not removable fittings. The roof is a permanent structural fixture, the radiators are not.

They have done nothing legally wrong, but they should not be surprised if the buyer also perfectly legally withdraws their previous offer and makes a lower one given the additional details about the quality of the radiators included in the sale.

Which is why to avoid disappointment a sensible seller makes it clear at viewings if items that would typically be expected to be left in situ like radiators will not be the same ones that the buyer sees at the viewing and may be of a lower standard.

Does no-one have surveys any more ? It’s not about getting the maximum price, it’s about presenting your home to its maximum potential to the buyer. The actual value of the house is not determined by removable fittings, it’s based on the structural integrity and the permanent fixtures which form part of that. Surveyors are not interested in what is included in the price of the house - only that a fair price is being asked for the structure.

So if the vendor removes carpets, curtains, mirrors, and yes, decorative radiators, it doesn’t make a jot of difference to the actual price of the house as far as the surveyor is concerned. That’s why we have seller disclosure forms such as the TA10, so that each party knows where they stand and can either negotiate or pull out. If the buyer likes a particular fitting when they view, it’s up to them to find out whether it’s included in the price of the house, and with decorative radiators costing as much as they do these days, the vendor leaving them behind is not something I’d assume.

I am so not looking forward to moving in a future when so many people think rads and anything not brick and mortar is a fair game. That you can present house with x and y and then swap it for lower quality stuff.

"Nice kitchen units and year old good quality boiler. Lovely! I would offer x"
"cheers, accepted. By the way the units will be changed for b&q basic and boiler is being swapped for 3 year old low range unit. We just wanted to present the home to maximum potential."

Maccies advertising, people!

Of course it makes price difference if you are buying stripped down shell or nicely done up house with nice rads, bathrooms etc.
Seeing how many people arw fine with this I think bringing in version of TA10 to be filles in before listing and available would be best for future

it's not the future
It's literally the situation now, and has been for decades.

No one is even saying it's "a fair game", but it's the reality when you buy a property.

Bit of a worry if you are buying a property and doesn't even know that.

Out of interest, why do you think that sellers expect to get a better price for a finished house than a doer-upper?

Fyi my L2 survey report included ratings for kitchen units, all bathroom components, couple door which have glass in and utility units. Oh and of xourse build in wardrobes.
Not just brick and mortar

Cheeky fucker is a very common phrase used multiple times daily on MN. No different to you and your "talk about entitlement" comment!

Is a kitchen unit not a fixture then?

Surveyors will report on the condition of things like built in furniture, bathroom fixtures etc, but anything not a permanent part of the structure or permanently bolted down doesn’t form part of the value of the house.

My survey and agents valuations came out same.

Admitted, he did not include radiators😂

So did ours, I’m almost every occasion. It still doesn’t mean that the fittings form part of the house value. One of our surveys we were advised that some of the double glazed units were old and would probably need replacing sooner rather than later. It didn’t make any difference to the value of the property, it just gave us leverage to negotiate a reduction for the cost of the replacements.