Page 13 | What are Hamas playing at?

Libellousness · 15/10/2025 15:06

letsallchant · 15/10/2025 14:47

On the point about Hamas not having scientific capacity, though, there's this from the Guardian article quoted earlier on the thread

Forensic authorities in Gaza have started the identification process of 45 bodies of Palestinians that Israel released on Tuesday as part of the ceasefire deal, according to the health ministry. Israel is expected to transfer more bodies, though the total number has not been announced.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/oct/15/gaza-ceasefire-israel-hamas-palestine-aid-hostages-detainees-prisoners-live-news-update

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Ok, but we don’t know exactly what that identification process looks like, or how scientific it is likely to be. I’m also assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that these bodies that Israel is returning are likely to be in better condition, having been kept properly in a mortuary at cool temperatures - so visual identification by families may be possible.

If we’re talking about forensic/DNA identification, I’m assuming Gaza does not have the capacity right now to DNA test thousands of bodies trying to find the 20 odd remaining Israelis - plus they don’t have samples from the hostages’ relatives to compare. They won’t have the hostages’ dental records either.

CrossChecking · 15/10/2025 15:07

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 14:52

This is a very difficult question. They need more than just fair elections. They need re-education, they need exposure to diversity and freedom of expression, they need to remove Islam extremism from their agenda and embrace all religions and secular mindsets. They deserve hope and they deserve to have a thriving society. I just don’t know how that can be achieved. I also think that the refugee concept needs addressing. You can’t claim to be a Palestinian if you weren’t born there or are descendants of Palestinians, any more than I can clam to be Polish and demand refugee status from Poland because my parents were born there. I also feel that the idea of creating a state which is purely Muslim (the Christian Palestinians are slowly being exiled now, and there are no other religions there at all) is unethical. In Israel there are around 7 million Jews, around 2 million Muslims, and collectively around 1.5 million Christian’s and other faiths. It’s not only a country for Jews although it is a Jewish majority state. I honestly don’t know what can happen going forward unless there is some kind of interim government in place that can begin the process of rebuilding society to create a country where people can live in peace and prosperity.

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I saw a clip from sky news earlier and they were asking teenage boys why they were throwing stones at Israeli armed vehicles in the Palestinian West Bank. They said because they destroy our schools and stop us from getting an education, they take our homes, they stop us from walking down our streets, they have checkpoints everywhere on our land, think they can control everything that we do. How do you suggest that we re-educate these young men not to notice what is happening around them and stop them from angry about it?

the5thgoldengirl · 15/10/2025 15:47

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PevenseygirlQQ · 15/10/2025 15:49

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You’re right Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, but Palestinians do deserve a state and a decent government.

HelenaWaiting · 15/10/2025 15:53

Growlybear83 · 15/10/2025 08:38

How are they meant to find all the bodies of the hostages when Israel have reduced most buildings to rubble and have almost certainly killed some of their own citizens during their constant two year bombardment of the area? There are countless Palestinian bodies buried under the rubble as well.

Kidnap someone; you're responsible for them. You don't get to wring your hands and play "bigger boys did it". If they hadn't taken hostages, they would not now have the problem they are faced with. Stop making excuses for them.

TeaBiscuitsNaptime · 15/10/2025 15:56

Hamas has no intention of co operating. They're allowed lie to the enemy anyway in their eyes. I think that either they have no ideas where the bodies are or they are using them for leverage. Probably the first one, that they have no idea where they are. I also think their intelligence isn't all that's it cracked up to be. Hamas are being listened to and heeded far too much In my eyes. Their ability and understanding isn't fully there

lazyarse123 · 15/10/2025 16:03

Livelovebehappy · 15/10/2025 08:51

Then why say they can?! My take on it is that also Hamas have probably tortured and hugely abused those hostages who are now dead, and returning them, and the subsequent autopsies, would show them up for the animals they are. I wish people would stop holding them up as freedom fighters. Watch them killing their own people yesterday, with the Palestinians on their knees with a bullet in the back of the head, whilst other baying Palestinian cheerleaders applauded. That’s the true picture of Hamas and the Palestinians. And we now have people here who have switched their pro Palestinian protests to collecting money to rebuild Gaza. Thanks, but no thanks….

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Exactly. What are all the pro Palestine protestors going to do now that they can no longer blame Israel for killing innocent civilians when Hamas are doing exactly the same thing and have been all along?
They have no respect for the lives of anyone.

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:13

Ontheedgeofit · 15/10/2025 15:00

I have just come back from Turkey and I was looking up population stats and it is interesting to note that 99.8% of the population identify as Muslim. It is apparent therefore that its not the religion that is a problem but rather the extremism.

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Wow! I thought Turkey was more diverse than that! I’m really surprised!

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:17

OrangeAxolotyl · 15/10/2025 15:03

Yes, @Ontheedgeofit - it's not mainstream Muslim culture and beliefs, but that of Islamism. A fascist and intolerant ideology. They want a borderless Caliphate and really don't care if the Palestinians are collateral damage.

Absolutely agree. I actually think, despite all the hateful (perhaps ignorant?) rhetoric about Israel, that the Muslim Arab citizens have a better quality of life than a lot of others in the region. In some ways, being free within a non Muslim majority country prevents extremism. That’s not to say that there are no extremists in Israel because there are in all religions there, including the Jews but very much a minority and very much controlled as far as possible.

Wheresrebeccabunch · 15/10/2025 16:18

Cheeks4970 · 15/10/2025 10:24

I am staunchly pro-Palestinian. And no, I will not be silent now, we will keep going until Palestine is free and the occupation has ended. I'm shocked at how many of you are willing to defend what Israel has done. If there was no occupation, there would be no resistance. I am wondering if any of you have seen the harrowing testimonies of the Palestinian hostages that have been returned and the treatment they have suffered (kidnapped from Gaza without charge and held in prisons). You all need to wake up and see who the real terrorists of the world are.

This.

DrPrunesqualer · 15/10/2025 16:19

Northquit · 15/10/2025 14:19

Because they wanted their people back. Although theirs went back in coaches not body bags.

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Not all of them
45 deceased Palestinians went back in body bags and many many more are held by Israel given the numbers they agreed to return

No idea whats going to happen to all the other dead Palestinians theyve got. Israel haven't made any agreements for all of the dead Palestinians to be returned and they won’t even be under rubble

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:24

Bumblebee72 · 15/10/2025 15:06

Yes. They are committing war crimes everyday. It is an entirely disproportionate response.

If the Israeli government think what they have done is right why aren't they defending themselves in the ICC, which has accused them of war crimes.

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I’m going to answer you from a position of knowledge rather than rhetoric because it’s possible that you have been exposed to twisted information. I hope you hear me, although from your posts I’m not sure that you’re able to. I do not support Netanyahu’s government. However, proportionality would have been doing what Hamas and Palestinians did on Oct 7th. Israel is in a difficult situation in that there are no defence systems in Gaza and no safe spaces. Hamas imbed themselves within the population. These are facts. They warn of strikes in advance and provide safe areas and corridors - but Hamas need casualties to further their cause and their propaganda machine so they use civilians and civilian areas as shields. Also facts. Israel do not commit war crimes. Hamas, Iran and Yemen have sent missiles into densely populated Israeli towns for the past few years. Those are war crimes. I agree that far too many Palestinians have died and that devastates me. I’m not sure what Israel should or could have done. Israelis do not want or need more land (let’s not talk about the settlers who are not representative of most Israelis). They really just want to live in peace where they are. If you want to suggest what could have been done differently I’ll listen. But I can’t accept tropes and lies and hatred.

SidekickSylvia · 15/10/2025 16:29

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:13

Wow! I thought Turkey was more diverse than that! I’m really surprised!

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So am I, so I had a look on Wiki and apparently, despite Turkey being a secular state, all births are recorded as muslim by default. And although a 'significant percentage' are non - observing muslims they will still identify as muslim for polls, so the official stats can be a bit misleading.

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:29

CrossChecking · 15/10/2025 15:07

I saw a clip from sky news earlier and they were asking teenage boys why they were throwing stones at Israeli armed vehicles in the Palestinian West Bank. They said because they destroy our schools and stop us from getting an education, they take our homes, they stop us from walking down our streets, they have checkpoints everywhere on our land, think they can control everything that we do. How do you suggest that we re-educate these young men not to notice what is happening around them and stop them from angry about it?

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You need to look at the wider picture. Terrorism from the West Bank was an enormous problem for many years so Israel had a duty to protect its citizens. It’s a vicious circle. Palestinians need to try to stop being terrorists and build a future based on modern values, Israel needs to trust that they will and slowly withdraw and deal with settler violence. There a much deeper analysis of this for another discussion, but the West Bank and Gaza are extreme societies based on Islamic conventions. This needs addressing. Palestinians are unwilling to live with or alongside Jews, while there are 2m Muslim Israeli citizens.

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:32

TeaBiscuitsNaptime · 15/10/2025 15:56

Hamas has no intention of co operating. They're allowed lie to the enemy anyway in their eyes. I think that either they have no ideas where the bodies are or they are using them for leverage. Probably the first one, that they have no idea where they are. I also think their intelligence isn't all that's it cracked up to be. Hamas are being listened to and heeded far too much In my eyes. Their ability and understanding isn't fully there

Edited

The Bibas family were sold to Islamic jihad after they were kidnapped. That’s why they returned in coffins after such a long time. The IJ probably bribed Hamas in order to give them back. There are so many warring clans within Gaza that it’s hard to know what happened after the kidnappings.

Boomer55 · 15/10/2025 16:34

elprup · 15/10/2025 08:13

It’s deeply worrying that Hamas haven’t returned all the dead hostages as agreed. I’ve seen comments saying it’s an impossible task given how Gaza has been reduced to rubble. But if that’s the case, they would have known they had lost the bodies. So why did they agree to return them if they knew they weren’t able to do so?

Hamas are terrorists. But, unhappily, their behaviour affects the innocents of Gaza. 🙄

Ontheedgeofit · 15/10/2025 16:41

SidekickSylvia · 15/10/2025 16:29

So am I, so I had a look on Wiki and apparently, despite Turkey being a secular state, all births are recorded as muslim by default. And although a 'significant percentage' are non - observing muslims they will still identify as muslim for polls, so the official stats can be a bit misleading.

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Yes this is correct but even independent academic research and polls still put the population who identify as Muslim at well over 90% and this would obviously include those who are non-practicing but still identify as Muslim.

The numbers aren't really the debate but rather that it is very much a case of religion not being the problem but rather the extremism and rule by religious leaders.

Bumblebee72 · 15/10/2025 16:43

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:24

I’m going to answer you from a position of knowledge rather than rhetoric because it’s possible that you have been exposed to twisted information. I hope you hear me, although from your posts I’m not sure that you’re able to. I do not support Netanyahu’s government. However, proportionality would have been doing what Hamas and Palestinians did on Oct 7th. Israel is in a difficult situation in that there are no defence systems in Gaza and no safe spaces. Hamas imbed themselves within the population. These are facts. They warn of strikes in advance and provide safe areas and corridors - but Hamas need casualties to further their cause and their propaganda machine so they use civilians and civilian areas as shields. Also facts. Israel do not commit war crimes. Hamas, Iran and Yemen have sent missiles into densely populated Israeli towns for the past few years. Those are war crimes. I agree that far too many Palestinians have died and that devastates me. I’m not sure what Israel should or could have done. Israelis do not want or need more land (let’s not talk about the settlers who are not representative of most Israelis). They really just want to live in peace where they are. If you want to suggest what could have been done differently I’ll listen. But I can’t accept tropes and lies and hatred.

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It is not me that thinks he is war criminal it is the International Criminal Court in the Hague. They issued an international arrest warrant for war crimes, including starvation of the population, and intentionally targeting civilians.

If Netanyahu is innocent of war crimes then he should stand trial and prove it. If as you say it is factual he will have no problem presenting those facts.

If he is found innocent, then I will listen to you.

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:44

Bumblebee72 · 15/10/2025 16:43

It is not me that thinks he is war criminal it is the International Criminal Court in the Hague. They issued an international arrest warrant for war crimes, including starvation of the population, and intentionally targeting civilians.

If Netanyahu is innocent of war crimes then he should stand trial and prove it. If as you say it is factual he will have no problem presenting those facts.

If he is found innocent, then I will listen to you.

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He will be found innocent. And I’m not a supporter of his. The only people guilty of starvation and war crimes are Hamas.

Ontheedgeofit · 15/10/2025 16:45

Ontheedgeofit · 15/10/2025 16:41

Yes this is correct but even independent academic research and polls still put the population who identify as Muslim at well over 90% and this would obviously include those who are non-practicing but still identify as Muslim.

The numbers aren't really the debate but rather that it is very much a case of religion not being the problem but rather the extremism and rule by religious leaders.

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Also interesting is that in the pursuit of a secular state, Turkey banned the wearing of traditional Islamic attire and this ban was only lifted as recently as 2013 to 2017.

OrangeAxolotyl · 15/10/2025 16:45

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:32

The Bibas family were sold to Islamic jihad after they were kidnapped. That’s why they returned in coffins after such a long time. The IJ probably bribed Hamas in order to give them back. There are so many warring clans within Gaza that it’s hard to know what happened after the kidnappings.

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It's Medieval, isn't it?

Bumblebee72 · 15/10/2025 16:46

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:44

He will be found innocent. And I’m not a supporter of his. The only people guilty of starvation and war crimes are Hamas.

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I will leave that for a court to decide.

Ontheedgeofit · 15/10/2025 16:48

SidekickSylvia · 15/10/2025 16:29

So am I, so I had a look on Wiki and apparently, despite Turkey being a secular state, all births are recorded as muslim by default. And although a 'significant percentage' are non - observing muslims they will still identify as muslim for polls, so the official stats can be a bit misleading.

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Too many thoughts ... You would think that if Turkey so desperately wanted to be part of the EU they would so away with this default birth registration.

PevenseygirlQQ · 15/10/2025 16:53

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 16:13

Wow! I thought Turkey was more diverse than that! I’m really surprised!

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I’m Turkish (half), my grandparents emigrated over in the 50’s. The only time my grandmother has ever set foot in a Mosque is for a funeral, although she would class herself as a Muslim.

All of my Turkish side I suppose would identify as Muslim but as far as I know never practice it, it’s the same for my family in Turkey. Many Turkish people are non-practising Muslims from my experience, well especially my family anyway!

soupyspoon · 15/10/2025 16:54

Jujujudo · 15/10/2025 14:52

This is a very difficult question. They need more than just fair elections. They need re-education, they need exposure to diversity and freedom of expression, they need to remove Islam extremism from their agenda and embrace all religions and secular mindsets. They deserve hope and they deserve to have a thriving society. I just don’t know how that can be achieved. I also think that the refugee concept needs addressing. You can’t claim to be a Palestinian if you weren’t born there or are descendants of Palestinians, any more than I can clam to be Polish and demand refugee status from Poland because my parents were born there. I also feel that the idea of creating a state which is purely Muslim (the Christian Palestinians are slowly being exiled now, and there are no other religions there at all) is unethical. In Israel there are around 7 million Jews, around 2 million Muslims, and collectively around 1.5 million Christian’s and other faiths. It’s not only a country for Jews although it is a Jewish majority state. I honestly don’t know what can happen going forward unless there is some kind of interim government in place that can begin the process of rebuilding society to create a country where people can live in peace and prosperity.

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I know, I was being somewhat tongue in cheek , Ive been following this shit show for nearly 40 years. Nothing is one or the other, nothing is black and white, its too nuanced and grey.
What is clear is that under an Islamic state of any sort, there wouldnt be diversity, freedom of expression and much of what we might consider is necessary for true self determination, it doesnt exist in the ME.

Im not happy to support that.

Equally Im not happy that people have been stripped of homes and land for nearly a hundred years.

However back to the present, Im also not happy for our government to have recognised a Palestinian 'state' given the regime its under.