Genuine question for anti-vaxxers

[Raisinmeup]

I see a lot online about anti-vaxxers and I’m trying to understand where they’re coming from, so this is a genuine question, not rage bait.

My understanding is that some parents choose not to vaccinate their children because they believe vaccines cause harmful side effects, or they just don’t trust the government and big pharma in general.

But what’s the alternative? If everyone stopped vaccinating, wouldn’t we start seeing diseases like polio coming back? That would mean more infant deaths and lifelong disabilities. It just doesn’t seem like a rational trade off?

From what I’ve seen, there seems to be a belief that immune systems can deal with these illnesses naturally, but I wonder if part of that belief comes from the fact that parents of today haven’t actually seen what a world without vaccines looks like. We’ve grown up in a time where infant death from preventable diseases is almost unheard of, so maybe it’s easy to forget how serious these infections really are.

And lastly, if you haven’t vaccinated your child and they then catch one of these illnesses, do you not end up turning to the same big pharma for the medicine or treatment anyway?

That's tough @Sexentric

Kind of but not strictly true - no-one has died from german measles or mumps in many years in the UK, nor in the last big mumps outbreak did anyone have 'physical and cognitive disabilities and deformities just from the damage from the virus' likewise for scarlet fever and I believe that any children made seriously unwell by measles in the last few years also had serious underlying illnesses.

The other aspect is hygiene, maybe improvements in that area has helped or maybe the viruses have changed and become less devasting over time.

But if you were poor in the 1920's then you had very little chance of seeing a Doctor until it was too late was my point.

OK then explain that to me.

Have you heard of NICE (the UK's National Institute for Health and Care Excellence)? They examine the evidence and decide which drugs/interventions are most cost-effective for various conditions. Prescribing practices in the UK are based on their guidelines.

Because of budget constraints (and of course ethics!), the last thing a GP will do is prescribe something unnecessary.

www.nice.org.uk/what-nice-does

When a GP diagnoses something, the drug they prescribe will be based on clinical considerations, but also cost.

Their budgets aren’t finite, and they are steered towards prescribing the most cost-effective drug within the clinical guidelines.

In the case of contraception, certain brands of pill cost twice as much as others, which is why you wouldn’t routinely be prescribed something like Yasmin, even if it’s better.

Long term solutions like the Mirena coil cost less again, which is why GPs are ‘encouraged’ to offer them.

A lot of it is driven by money.

Anti-vaxxers are just freeloaders. They avoid the hassle of vaccinating their children by relying on the rest of us to create transmission barriers by taking the sensible course of vaccinating.

But if there’s an outbreak they rush to get their children vaccinated. It’s not a matter of research or reasoned risk assessment (because those would point strongly to the benefits of vaccination). It’s just selfishness.

Sigh. Rubella is at near zero levels in the U.K. because of vaccination. Same with mumps. There are places in the world where this is not true, so we know how dangerous these diseases continue to be when outbreaks pop up. Several deaths from measles already in the US this year.

The serious effects from rubella are not direct deaths, which are rare, but the effect on unborn babies, which includes stillbirth and serious foetal deformity — look up congenital rubella syndrome, in which a third of babies who suffer from it die early in life. Nobody wants that re-emerging in the U.K. Before vaccination, mumps did kill — a smaller case fatality rate than measles, but mumps encephalitis, and complications like infertility, still happened, and still do, in other parts of the world.

We also know the mutation rates of these diseases - they are viruses which are very stable over a long time, which is why vaccination gives lifelong immunity. The measles virus is not able to mutate much before it collapses, so the proteins on its coat, (which our immune system recognises it by), remain the same. We know from what happens elsewhere in the world (and not just in countries with poor sanitation), that the effects of these viruses remain the same when there are outbreaks.

THIS is what happens when antivax misinformation takes hold:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2025/oct/17/health-infectious-diseases-vaccination-measles-us-robert-kennedy-latin-america-antivax-blamed-cases-deaths-rise

This article explains how dangerous it is when measles re-emerges, and how living in a “post-herd immunity” world means people can’t judge the risks of these diseases accurately:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/03/measles-post-herd-immunity

And here, about the effect of anti-vax sentiment in the US:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/24/vaccine-disinformation-trump-measles-covid

What fabulously sensible and fact-filled posts, thecatfromneptune. Thank you.

I had mumps in 2014 when I was 30 weeks pregnant.
it was horrendous, and I ended up spending the best part of a week in hospital on a drip as I got so dehydrated. Highlight of my stay was when my IV drip ran out during the night and none of the nurses on shift would come in to my room as they weren’t vaccinated and didn’t want to risk catching it, so would leave me listening to the beep of the machine all night…after making me get out of bed to turn off the call button.

Why weren’t you or they vaccinated? I thought the majority of people were.

I was vaccinated….

That sounds horrendous @nosmokinggun, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I had a similar experience while in hospital with Covid.

This is part of the problem. We were vaccinated. Do we still have immunity? I remember getting mumps as a kid (tbf you don't forget mumps) but I don't think I've been vaccinated against measles.

What happens when things spread as the antivaxxers want and you find adults who's immunity has waned catching these diseases?

Is there even a option to get these vaccines as an adult or getting immunity checked.

The other aspect is hygiene, maybe improvements in that area has helped or maybe the viruses have changed and become less devasting over time.

Don’t bank on it. In just the Texas measles outbreak of January this year, nearly 800 people caught measles, mostly unvaccinated. 99 of those were hospitalised and 2 children with no underlying illnesses died. And that’s just one of 44 measles outbreaks in the USA this year. It definitely is a devastating disease. As is mumps, particularly for the potential fertility of the person suffering with it.
A pp hit the nail on the head when they said that people have become complacent because they haven’t seen first hand what some of these diseases can do. I hope they’re prepared to find out with declining vaccination rates…

“To me, it’s a bit like imagining a world where a vaccine was created to prevent all cancers. Over the course of a generation or two, cancer becomes so rare that people forget how devastating it used to be. Then, as time passes, some start refusing the vaccine because a small number of people experience side effects, without realising the enormous suffering it once prevented.”

this is exactly it.

Stopping calling them side effects would be a help.

Haven't they also made a vaccine that makes cancer visible to the immune system? It might happen yet.

There's just been a new preventive HIV/AIDS medicine released. I wonder how many generations it'll take before those at risk refuse to take it because they'd rather the side effects.

(I know it's not quite the same, but already the absolute horror that AIDS struck in the 80s and 90s is already fading.)

Children are dying of measles in USA as the anti brigade are out in force.

Measles
Deaths: 1 to 2 per 1,000 people

Risk factors: The risk of death is higher in infants, adults, and those with weakened immune systems.

Complications: A major cause of death is severe complications such as encephalitis (brain swelling), which occurs in about 1 in 1,000 cases.

Mumps
Deaths: 1.6 to 3.8 per 10,000 people

Risk factors: Most deaths are caused by encephalitis, which can be a complication of mumps.

Complications: Other complications include viral meningitis, and in males, swollen testicles.

Rubella (German Measles)
Deaths:
While rare, deaths from rubella are most significant in the context of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS), which can occur if a woman is infected during pregnancy.

Risk factors:
It can cause miscarriage or severe birth defects, with up to 33% of infants with CRS dying before their first birthday.

Complications:
Complications include painful joint swelling and thrombocytopenia (a bleeding disorder).

Prevention
Vaccination is the most effective way to prevent measles, mumps, and rubella, and it has saved millions of lives.

The MMR vaccine protects against all three diseases and is recommended for children.

WHY WOULD YOU TAKE A CHANCE WITH YOUR CHILDS HEALTH?????? Children are dying in America of measles at the moment - why would you not do this??? A dog is not allowed in a kennel without vaccinations but you are quite prepared to play Russian Roulette with your children. Not sure why people are pussy footing around anti vaxers, I think they are very very dangerous people.

What culture is 75% unvaccinated? Just curious...

I’m sorry that happened to you. I think mumps immunity can wane after 10 plus years of vaccination which is another reason that it’s important younger people continue to be vaccinated to maintain herd immunity for all - particularly as it’s often transmitted where young people congregate like universities.

Hippies 😂