Why can’t the Israelis and Palestinians just live in peace?!!

[elprup]

Surely that’s what the overwhelming majority want. Let’s face it, 99% of us just want to get on with our lives in a quiet, peaceful way and do the best for our kids. So why can’t they all just lay down the weapons and live together, in harmony? Open the borders and live as one, forging a brighter future for their kids?

Your first mistake is assuming that everyone in the world has the same mindset as you.

I don’t think I ever suggested my view was pure or uninfluenced by my own experience, nor was I suggesting the information you provided was necessarily partisan, just I didn’t have enough knowledge to agree or disagree with it. I think you’ve read into my post a lot more than was ever said. (I don’t as it happens agree that cultures are incompatible in the way you suggest, but I certainly didn’t express that.) I find the constant painting of “Muslims” as a threat inaccurate and unhelpful and the suggestion that Christians, Jews, Muslims, and indeed Hindus, Buddhists, or any other religion are incapable of living harmoniously together is not based in fact it’s a fiction created to divide and control. It is the behaviour that is abhorrent, and the Israelis have been behaving unforgivably to the Palestinians for generations. It needs to stop, and new better ways need to be found.

Also there's the thorny little issue of Hamas. It took them about a microsecond after a ceasefire with Israel to start killing other Gazans instead. They don't seem ready for peace and open borders - I mean look what happened the last time they got across the border two years ago.

"There is a substantial part of the population of Northern Ireland who don't want to give it back".

Eh. Duh. Obviously.

It is the descendants of the UK colonisers in Northern Ireland who do not want to give Northern Ireland back.

The facts stand. The U.K. invaded Ireland and raped, killed and stole land. My Irish granfather told my Irish mother that the UK black and tan army used to drive around villages and choose young women to rape.

Do you have sympathy for the people of Ireland?

I note that your post showed zero empathy for what happened in Ireland. Why is that?

What about when the UK caused a famine in Ireland that killed 1 million people? Any empathy for that?

What about the UK's long invasion of Ireland. Which was brutal. They raped a lot of women. Any empathy? What about how the UK refused to give all of Ireland it's independence, the UK insisted on keeping Northern Ireland. Any empathy for that? This then caused a civil war in Ireland which caused more deaths.

This then caused a further war in Northern Ireland (the troubles) which caused more deaths.

Any empathy at all for all the suffering caused?

@Helenalove "The U.K has been one of the most barbaric, brutal colonising countries in World history."

Sooo wrong

https://www.thetoptens.com/history/brutal-empires-history/

How is it so wrong when the British Empire is third on your list of the most brutal empires.? Lol. You literally proved my point.

The other poster didnt answer yet so I will ask you.

What do you think about the U.K. causing a famine in Ireland that caused one million deaths?

What do you think about the UK invading Ireland and stealing land, which caused the Irish civil war, and also caused the Northern Ireland troubles. Which both caused deaths.

Any thoughts?

@Helenalove "What do you think about the U.K. causing a famine in Ireland that caused one million deaths?"

The UK was not responsible for the blight that decimated potato crops.

The Normans invaded Britain in 1066, they landed in Ireland a century later in 1169. For most of the Middle Ages Ireland was ruled as a separate kingdom under the British Crown. Although the area they controlled was not the whole country, just the eastern part.

The UK did not invade Ireland (the UK didn't exist then) it was the Normans - ie French that did that.

So stop blaming the English for what our French neighbours did.

I didn't say the UK caused the blight that infected potato crops. That was a natural disaster.

There were other foods in Ireland at the time obviously, as there is eveywhere.

What the U.K. DID do - was steal and export every other food out of Ireland at the time.

This caused the famine and killed one million people. The U.K. caused it

Did you not know that? Learn your history

From one source
:

In the midst of all this suffering, the Irish began to examine the actions of the British government. Food continued to be exported out of Ireland. British owners of Irish land were still entitled to the crops grown on that land. Their businesses relied on these crops. And British policy did not prevent the export. Starving Irish people became furious as they watched boatloads of grain depart from their docks for England. Food riots erupted at ports such as Youghal and Dungaran in southeast Ireland”(Sherman, 2017, p.22).

Ireland was growing enough food to feed its people but they had to watch this food get shipped out of the country.

@Helenalove "Did you not know that? Learn your history"

Please do not lecture me or patronise me. It doesn't put you in a good light.

You obviously have a personal issue with this ( demonstrated by five posts on this topic in quick succession) so perhaps you would be better engaged addressing that?

You wrote something that was inaccurate. I clarified, using a source, on how the UK exported food out of Ireland, causing one million deaths.

Now all of a sudden, you have nothing to say about proven historical facts. Why is that?

Again, what are your thoughts on the UK causing one million deaths in Ireland?

I am trying to get a tiny bit of empathy out of UK posters for what happened in ireland.

I havent seen empathy from a single poster yet.

It's utterly shocking.

You have zero empathy for the countries that the UK destroyed.

If you think UK is such a terrible place maybe you should consider relocating?

Then you won't have to rub shoulders with these people you despise.

I don't live in the UK. You arrogantly assumed that I did.

Why dont you answer my Question?

What are your thoughts on the UK causing one million deaths in Ireland?

Very strange that you won't answer. Is it denial? Shame?
You are an adult right. You can answer a question

"Why dont you answer my Question?"

Because I'm not answerable to you.

Then why are you on a chat forum engaging in discussion?

No.
The real reason is:
You won't answer when you know that you are wrong.

You wrote incorrect rubbish.

I supplied historical facts.

When you were proven wrong, you won't answer.

It is laughable really.

OK Fine

Its not fine. You are part of the problem.

Anytime I have said to someone from the UK about the huge devastation and desttuction that the UK caused round the world, they always say

"It didnt happen" "it wasnt us" or "we actually improved their countries by invading them." Etc

While glossing over years of rape, torture famines, deaths and cruelty.

Its fucking disgusting.

At least Germany acknowledge what Germany did wrong in history.

I hope you don’t live in the UK. You sound like you hate the country so much that it can’t be doing your mental health much good living amongst us heathens. Don’t like us or our history? I suggest you find a country which has clean hands. But I think you’ll be disappointed. Most countries have history that they’re not proud of. My take is, don’t look back, look forward. Nothing that happened hundreds of years ago was done in my name, so I can sleep pretty well at night. No shame from me….

Ah, just read you don’t live here. That explains it. Tell us where you live. I’m sure there’s something in history that your country isn’t proud of. But I wouldn’t hold you accountable for it.

I didnt say to have shame. I said to have empathy.

I still have yet to see one poster from the UK show any empathy or kindness for what happened and is still happening in Ireland.

And it wasnt hundreds of years ago

. The U.K are still occupying Northern Ireland, the same as Israel are still occupying Gaza

I don’t think all cultures or religions are incompatible with other cultures at all. Sikhs have tended to live comfortably alongside secular British people and Christians. Japanese people have generally integrated well in Britain whilst retaining their own distinct culture. Jewish people have generally lived well alongside British people in modern Britain. And moderate Islam is also perfectly compatible with Western values of equality and democracy (just as examples). Look at what is being done to girls and women in Afghanistan, though (and Christ only knows how gay men are being treated). Can you honestly say that this culture is compatible with ours? If the Scots were suddenly to begin to live in such a way, would you really not feel alarmed at sharing a border with, and allowing free movement from, a nation that stones and beats women and forces little girls to marry middle aged men?

@RoseAndGeranium The things you describe are cultural rather than religious though aren’t they. It isn’t all Muslims any more than it is all Jews who subjugate Palestinians and follow Netanyahu’s terrifying agenda. So while I agree that there are some cultures that are less compatible than others I don’t see that they can be described by their religion and I do believe a path can be found. It doesn’t start with killing but what if it stopped now? What if instead of keeping on the same path of endless misery we faced what we have done and moved forward.

They can, of course they can.
It is not naive, it is just plainly the only solution. There is no alternative. There was never other option and there will never be any other option. Plain and simple.
Both sides of the borders have to get rid of those shouting about hate and destroying the enemy and chose real tough leaders to bring on that peace and keep it. The civilians will have to lead this, from scratch. Organise themselvs in new and trustworthy political parties to get it done.

That’s why I used the word ‘culture’, not the word ‘religion’. You will note that I acknowledged quite clearly that moderate Muslims live comfortably alongside those of other faiths (or no faith) in Britain. However, it is also true that fundamentalist Islam is disproportionately associated with violence justified by religious claims, brutal mistreatment of those of other faiths, and extreme repression of women. That is not to say Western nations are saintly and non-violent, or that Christianity does not have repulsive episodes in its history, and nor is it to suggest that appalling human rights violations are only or even mainly associated with religion (just ask the Uyghurs, if you can find any left after the Chinese government has done its best to destroy them). But I think it does mean that cultures that adopt fundamentalist Islam as a guiding principle are incompatible with societies that allow women and gay people equal rights and legal protections, and try to maintain tolerance between those from different faiths and cultures.
And, look, obviously it would be lovely if the killing and raping and grotesque violence stopped. I’m not condoning any of it. God. Wouldn’t it be nice if resolving some arguments on Mumsnet could actually fix anything.