To Discuss How Not To Be A Bullying Victim

[ClockedIt]

There was another thread on a similar but not same subject this week that that mentions that this would be a good subject to explore but, to use a well worn phrase ‘would be the subject of a different thread’.

That thread had some really interesting posts about group dynamics.

I had a discussion a while ago about this with someone who had been badly bullied - didn’t fit in in school, college or work. We became friendly and had a lot of deep personal chats. I said to him “who is most likely to become a victim of bullying - is it someone with no friends?”

He said “no - not exactly someone with no friends - it’s someone who is unsure”

Even though he was bullied, he had a good perception of people and people’s motivations.

Someone else I spoke to said that people pick on differences between people but if a person with differences has a strong personality that deters bullies.

Any thoughts?

A lot of victim blaming on this thread.

Observing children in our local playground this weekend it is clear to me that a shocking number of children are hard-wired to identify anyone who is a bit different and to be shitty towards them. This is especially true in middle class, aspirational families with parents who are successful/sporty etc.

DS 4 is probably mildly neurodiverse - vocal stims, struggles with some of the playground equipment but very outgoing and friendly. It was quite chilling to see a group of older boys in my local park (ages 6 or 7) start mocking his voice and trying to wind him up when he asked if he could play with them. Like, if you don't want to play with him, don't, but where is the need to be an arsehole about it?
It was disturbing to see children of that age who were already so coked up on conformity and who had bought in so deeply to the "nail that sticks out shall be hammered down" mentality.

I imagine this is learned behaviour.

Probably the best protection against bullying is not caring what other people think of you. My son gives absolutely zero fucks. He is an oddball but he is very confident and warm, and makes friends wherever he goes, popular in pre-school (but he is not for everyone as he is eccentric). I can guide him in appropriate social behaviour but honestly it's his not giving a monkeys that will protect him in the long run.

DH say kids tried to bullly him at school. He is very nerdy and was only in adulthood diagnosed as autistic. From primary school age he wanted to learn and be the best in his class and had unusual interests for a small child. He now teaches at a university and is a professer and incredibly successful in his field.

He was ( and still is) completely and utterly uninterested in what others think and not very visibly emotional at all. He is incredibly bright and very very quick witted and able to defend himself and hit back with clever words very easily. None of which make him popular at school but do help if what a bully is looking for is a visible sign of fear or uncertainty.

I can't do that at all my emotions show too easily. DS has this problem too and he was very bullied unfortunately

DH says the physical bullying in early secondary school was the main issue because his personality helped with psychological bullying were not at al useful for the more aggressive , angry physical bullies

But it in the 80s and he had an older brother who was much more sporty, physical and able to take care of himself. His brother basically used violence and threats ( in private) against the worst offenders which made the physical bullying stop pretty quickly

So for DH , the verbal bullying didn't stop entirely but it reduced fairly quickly and he was able to do well at school and continued to love the learning, though he never liked the environment of school, it was more an irritation than a trauma.

So for DH it was a combination of an independent personality and an older brother willing to step in and meet physical violence with his own. Without his brother I think DH would have had physical bullying to deal with, which would have been a very different story I think.

Agree. You can only be bullied if you perceive that you are being bullied. If you don’t engage, the bullies have nothing to hang their coat on.

DS1: ASD/ADHD, nerdy, into drama, reading and Pokémon, hangs out in the library. Literally doesn’t give a shit if someone takes the piss.

DS2: similar, but more sensitive, might be more attuned to nasty comments. Likes football but already perceives that other kids don’t pass to him.

The best thing to teach (autistic) kids is to find their tribe. Hang out in the library, take part in clubs, find kids across year groups with similar interests, avoid trying to run with the crowd.

Agreed, basically telling them to be more like the bullies is not the answer.

Yeah agree. It’s such a gift to be so unarsed, but hard to teach to someone who is more sensitive or worried about fitting in.

I was mercilessly bullied for my whole school life. Everyone either avoided me or picked on me. It was a fucking miserable time.

As an adult, I seem to be quite popular and immune to bullies. I still attract the occasional asshole but I just find it mildly amusing compared to school, and then they seem to avoid me.

I do wonder what changed between then and now. As PP said - The best armour is high self-esteem, and I definitely had none then. I was also being horribly abused at home, and was desperate to be treated kindly by someone, anyone. I was very unsure in social situations, I'm didn't know how to act with people. I tried so hard not to say or do anything that might make someone mean to me, and this just seemed to put a big flashing light over my head saying WEAKLING - KICK HERE.

I do wonder what changed between then and now. I feel like I'm the same person, I don't feel like I act any different, I'm not really more confident on the inside and I'm still a fucking weirdo, but the way people treat me is so different.

One thing I think helps is that now I can escape if I want to. As an adult I have control of my own life and I have choices. When I was a child no one cared, no one did anything to stop it, and there was nothing I could do to get away. Now, if it's a workplace bully, I can make a grievance/find a new job. If it's a twat of a neighbour I can go to police/council/move house. I don't have to put up with it if I don't want to, and that means I'm less bothered by it.

But yeah, I also did a lot of martial arts after leaving school so maybe that helps..

This is an interesting thread.

I was a bully’s dream victim. Socially awkward and young for my age, completely cut off from popular culture due to what I was allowed to watch and listen to at home, speech impediment, coke bottle old lady glasses, completely unfashionable clothes, 6 ft tall at 13 (which sucks for a girl) and nerdy.

I have never been bullied. What I am about to say is not meant to be victim-blaming or an attempt to be seen as cleverer or more insightful than others. It is down to luck of personality.

The number one thing I believe made me bully proof was that I had no desire to be with the in-crowd so the exclusion and ostracism that work on so many girls who are desperate to be in certain groups did not work on me. In fact, if they were used against me I wouldn't have had a clue as I had no desire to be with that type of group anyway.

I had friends who were utterly miserable about not having the right clothes or stuff. I couldn’t care less and if someone laughed at me over my clothes I would just feel sorry for them being worked up about something so unimportant.

Once or twice kids mocked my speech impediment. I would laugh it off and there it would end. If I was accused of being a nerd, I would agree and say I had read 3 books that week already. Wind straight out of sails.

Being thought of as different and weird was a source of pride for me. I never had a desire to fit in.

I can recall multiple times when potential bullies tested the waters with me but gave up because of the above.

Thanks again so much for this.

ive started watching from the beginning

i think his description about bullying being a game is correct

l I had a friend on Facebook who was very patronising. She’d also be very nosey. She was a prime example of dish it out but not take it iyswim! I think adults bully more by patronising and being deliberately intrusive than the traditional schoolyard bullying.

Anyway she’d ask where I was living and I would deliberately say a lie. If they put up photos of parks etc where I was actually living for all including her to see. She soon saw I was living in a completely different area and I wasn’t even bothering to cover my tracks! She was unhappy and put I hate liars on her Facebook page as a status but didn’t confront me directly about it.

I know the mature thing is just not playing games by lying just cut her off my Facebook !

Anyway she backed off after that and didn’t want to know me anymore. I think bullies don’t like being made a fool of. I should’ve done the mature thing and not lied but unfriended her but at least it taught me about the psychology of this type of person

Sorry for typos above I can’t edit so just to clarify -

she’d ask me where I was living. I’d deliberately say a lie but then put up photos of parks and the town centre etc if the actual place I was living. It didn’t take long for the bully to figure out she’d been lied to and disrespected - I wasn’t even attempting to cover my tracks !! And the bully backed away from me

Thank you to the poster who linked to that book on workplace bullying. I was bullied by my manager to such an extent that I had significant mental health struggles and ended up resigning the job I loved (before she took charge). I do not think I was weak or insecure: on the contrary, I was well-liked by my colleagues, was good at my job, reliable and conscientious. This manager hated me for it and did everything she could to undermine me and make me feel insecure in my job when I was at my most vulnerable (eg when had health problems which temporarily impacted my job, after the death of my mother etc). I have since left that job and feel a million times better for it. I certainly did not invite her to bully me through any weakness or uncertainty in my personality. She just hated what I stood for. She was also the union rep so there was no point going down that route. Often the bullies are the weak ones in these scenarios. She must have known somewhere deep down that she was a horrible, unloveable person, but didn’t have the insight to recognise it or change it in herself.

You're very welcome. I hope the book helps you as much as it's helped me. 💕

This. It’s about self assurance and inner steel.

People tried to bully me. I genuinely didn’t give a shit about their opinion. Takes away their power.

My children are taught to stand up for themselves and have a healthy disregard for others views. Be true to yourself. I also talk to them a lot about the world and how adults behave (not always well) and share news and social stories about how people deal with situations in good ways and bad ways. I try and offer both sides of the stories and let them think about what they think is right and what’s best to do. I’m very open about family dynamics and how decisions in the wider family are made. Avoids them being gullible / not worldly wise which also makes an easy target.

It’s interesting to consider what exactly is bullying? The same behaviours will be labelled it by one person but not another.

example - A girl in y7 constantly accuses the other girls of bullying. She regularly doesn’t want to go to school and cries in the playground etc.

I have witnessed first hand many incidents and I honestly do not think she is being bullied. She’s over sensitive and desperate to fit in, but goes about it in the wrong way. For example if the girls are playing football she will cry about not getting the ball. Or stand in front of the goal and then cry that the ball has hit her. Or refuse to play but then stand on the sidelines crying that she’s being “left out”. The other girls are exasperated by her behaviour, and even more so when the parents regularly complain she’s being bullied. They try their best to include her but she’s really a bit of a wet lettuce and manipulative so whatever they do risks getting twisted into a drama. I myself have assigned groups for projects and then had complains that the other groups are “leaving her out”. When of course they are not - she has a group to work with!

In my view she needs support and possibly some play therapy to learn how to make friends and join in. And some resilience that it can’t always go her way. But when that is suggested to the parents they accuse the school of cover up and being unsupportive.

It's great isn't it! Glad you liked it. It's such a clever way to deal with bullies. But ultimately, very hard to implement if your immediate and natural reaction is to be upset or defensive. Or if you're terrified of your bully. But, if we can teach our kids to approach it in a similar way, or at least talk about the theory, it might help.

This is great actually- knowing that you’re different/ ‘weird’ but in a ‘good’ way

I was the only only child amongst my peer group, my mum was a very aspirational full time career woman which, even in middle class circles, was slightly unusual for the time. I was a loner who liked my own company as, rightly or wrongly, industries the demographic of the particular school I was in. At 13 I was happy with myself and felt confident and independent- but because my mum said I was being selfish, this ruined everything

Thanks for this link 🙌

Am pleased for your son 😊 and I wish to be honest this couldn’t been me.

i wasn’t at school with my DP but like your son I don’t think he was the ‘type’ to be bullied.

It was a rough, working class school with atrocious results - so not an academic school at all and one where bullying and violence were rife.

However my DP had the advantage of being very physically attractive, the youngest in a large family with several ‘sensible’ older siblings, and a decent, upbeat straightforward lad who might stick up for the bullying victims if he could.

This is so true - it’s knowing when and who to stand up to

Aged 13 I punched someone in the face who said she’d been the ‘hardest’ girl in primary school. She started crying and I could see by her face she was scared of me. I’m ashamed of this now, not least because she wasn’t actually bullying me at the time - just interfering so I think I went overboard tbh. At this time though - I was only in my 2nd year and overall had a reasonably ‘neutral’ reputation in school - I wasn’t popular but neither was I a social pariah

However 3 years later when I was 16 I said “fuck off’ to a hard, popular girl in school cos I was putting on some daft make up and I thought she made a derogatory comment. She didn’t take this lying down and cornered me in the yard basically handing my ass to me on a plate. She said a couple of things to shame me - basically repeating some humiliating gossip that had been said about me - said I was fat and humiliated me - a boy in her gang then spat at me. I was scared. Thing is by the age of 16 my social life at school had collapsed like a load of jenga blocks and I now hung round with the social pariahs and was a real social pariah myself. I was in the last year of school - as it was the January I only had about 3 months realistically left to go cos in the last year ‘real’ school is over by Easter. So looking back in this situation I’d have been better off keeping my powder dry and ‘backing down’ - if she made a derogatory comment I should’ve just laughed along rather than saying fuck off - cos the same girl had about a year before made a point of singling me out and saying “you don’t say much do you?” to which I just smiled and laughed along then she just left it. To be fair I shouldn’t have said fuck off because this girl hadn’t bullied me - it was a one off comment cos of the make up not repeated, sustained behaviour

So I think from these examples it is
good to know when to fight and when to back down. As it happened, I wasn’t bullied in either of these situations. A LOT has to do with the alliances you’ve made and the social support you have as to how easy it is to be bullied

This is the kind of message which I would have disagreed with a few years ago but unfortunately I completely agree now. So many parents don't care that their children are bullies as long as they are not being bullied and schools hands are so tied that these kids get away with far far to much. I've told my child not to throw the first punch and always be kind as a rule but they are not required to be kind to bullies. Sometimes a smack in the chops is all that will register for them.

I don't agree with using violence back. I did that once and got bullied much worse for it. For years, I blamed that bully, but now I realise I could have been arrested myself for what I did.
Also, if you hit someone the same size as you, next one might be their big brother.

Being the victim of violence is better than being the victim of verbal abuse though because you can prove it. Verbal/subtle bullying can be impossible to prove. I had a workplace bully who just didn't talk to me or gave me dirty looks. i couldn't make any kind of complaint against her.

Bullying is an absolutely wicked thing to do. My DS was bullied at school. It's horrendous and ultimately can result in suicide.

I found that the parents of bullies either deny or condone it. Schools have absolutely no idea how to tackle it. DS was made to sit down with his bully, explain what he was doing was upsetting him and why. I mean, it should be obvious that taking someone's stuff and wrecking/binning it is upsetting them? Or calling them a fucking retard and tripping them up? Sticking pens into their body in lessons? It's obvious stuff. Yet DS was made to explain.

All it did was make the bully do it more. As it was clearly having the desired impact.

Only one thing, after several years and a growth spurt, got through to this bully and that was unfortunately my DS bashing him. My DS has never hurt anyone before or since, and this was 10 years ago now. He didn't want to do it, but was left with no options after systematic bullying. The bully moved on to other victims, continuing this shitty behaviour and destroying people's lives. When older, these new teen victims (not my DS), cornered this bully together and really beat the shit out of him - not just the one big bash like my DS did. I have to say, I was pleased and happy to hear that these kids had done this.

Society doesn't tackle bullying. It destroys people's lives. Almost all school shooters have been victims of severe bullying. When this stuff happens, people wonder why. Bullying is why, plain and simple.

Ooh yes it’s so true that almost all school shooters have been victims of bullying - often severe bullying.

Although after reading a book on the Colombine shootings in America in 1999 - actually it seemed to be that the perpetrators there weren’t as bullied as much as me or as humiliated as much as me in school just ignored and not really included more than anything. It seemed that people in school were slightly fearful of them before the shootings. So they were just left alone it seems to me more than actively bullied but I apologise if I’ve got this wrong

Not being neurodivergent helps you to not be a victim of bullying.

I'm autistic. I was diagnosed in my mid 50s. The psychologists who diagnosed me said they thought I was very vulnerable to bullying because of not understanding body language, facial expressions, inferences and all sorts of other ways that people communicate. Also low self-esteem, people pleasing tendencies etc.

The worst bully I ever had was exDP. He was very good it because he is very intelligent (has a PhD). He managed to convince me that his bullying was largely my fault. So obviously that was domestic abuse.

I had low self esteem and people pleasing tendencies .. definitely!

I think crushes on people can improve self esteem - I think there’s a biological reason for them but of course they can be destructive if they go OTT and develop into obsessions