Do you believe in God/a higher power?

[CuriousAboutWhatYouThink]

Not religion. I have no time for organised religion and the associated man made rules.

But do you believe in 'something'?

For context, my grandad was a CofE vicar but my parent rebelled against it and we were brought up broadly l in the religion (eg we celebrated main religious festivals like Easter and Christmas) but not as practising Christians and without a particular belief in God.

As an adult, I have friends of different faiths and none and it's something we have discussed from time to time. It's also something I used to discuss with my grandma who had a very strong belief in God but also believed the Bible until she became older when she still had a strong faith but admitted she thought the Bible was largely nonsense!

I suppose I've always felt that there is 'something' but I refer to it as the universe. I don't know, I always feel that there has been 'something' looking out for me.

That doesn't mean bad things have never happened because they have and religion/belief doesn't protect anyone from that. And it doesn't mean my life is anywhere near perfect because it's not. But the universe has always seemed to 'step in' when needed.

I don't know. I'm going through a tough time at the moment but I have a feeling everything will turn out to be OK because it always does.

@Parker231

That's how pagan polytheists view it, yes.

On the flip side, though, they aren't going to harm or punish anyone for not believing in them, like some Christians believe that their God will do.

Sounds a very selfish religion.

@thisishowloween

If they're not all knowing or all powerful, what are they? And why are they considered deities?

We consider them deities because in pagan polytheist philosophy being all-knowing and all-powerful are not innate properties of being a deity.

Your exposure to Christian monotheist concepts of what a deity must be has led you to think that something must be X in order to be considered a deity. But that is an Abrahamic monotheist idea. Why should it be held up to be the absolute definition of a deity?

In pagan polytheism, the gods and goddesses are seen as disembodied conscious beings who typically have the highest level of power and influence out of all the other myriad spirit entities - spirits of the dead, elemental spirits, nature spirits, etc, etc. But they are not all-powerful or all-knowing no.

They are still deities, because omnipotence and omniscience are not required properties in order for a spirit to be a deity.

How are people supposed to know about them form a relationship?

Most people (at least in the West) by the time they reach adulthood, are aware of the existence of many of these deities as a concept. People have some awareness that there are pantheons of Greek deities (Zeus, etc), Egyptian deities, Norse deities, Celtic deities...the majority of people are aware of at least SOME. They just don't believe they exist, because monotheism and atheist are the dominant perspectives in the West.

But people are aware of them. In order to form a relationship, though, they need to grant the existence of these deities as a possibility. Then they can make an approach to the deities themselves and initiate things. Make contact. Meditate, develop their psychic skills so that they can learn to perceive information from spirits, pray/speak to the deities...

So they're essentially not arsed about anyone who isn't fortunate enough to have discovered them and who isn't able to provide them with gifts.

If someone reached out to them and was genuinely unable to provide them with gifts, then the deities would understand, I think. And the gifts that polytheist offer are not necessarily vast - I might offer some milk and honey or a glass of wine and bit of chocolate - I should think those are easy enough for most people to offer, unless they are in absolute poverty.

But yes, the deities, as I (as a pagan polytheist see it) are not bothered with people they don't know. There's no reason why they would be. Because loving and caring about the whole of humanity is not an essential property of being a deity.

This is where a quote from another of John Beckett's posts (to highlight my point) comes in handy. It's from this one:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnbeckett/2022/01/what-is-seen-cannot-be-unseen.html

"Spirits do not exist to “help” humans
Even those who accept the reality of Gods and spirits often have their foundational assumptions challenged. They find that fairies aren’t what Disney told us they were. They learn the spirit world is full of persons doing their own things for their own reasons, some of whom are ambivalent at best when it comes to humans. They find that Gods have Their own agendas and your comfort and safety aren’t very high on them.

In other words, they learn that life isn’t all about us."

@Parker231

By that, do you mean that the Gods and Goddesses themselves sound selfish?

Because I don't know how you could take from what I've said that pagan polytheists themselves are selfish.

Nope

@SorcererGaheris

Your exposure to Christian monotheist concepts of what a deity must be has led you to think that something must be X in order to be considered a deity. But that is an Abrahamic monotheist idea. Why should it be held up to be the absolute definition of a deity?

I didn't say it should.

In pagan polytheism, the gods and goddesses are seen as disembodied conscious beings who typically have the highest level of power and influence out of all the other myriad spirit entities - spirits of the dead, elemental spirits, nature spirits, etc, etc. But they are not all-powerful or all-knowing no.

What kind of power and influence are they supposed to have?

Most people (at least in the West) by the time they reach adulthood, are aware of the existence of many of these deities as a concept. People have some awareness that there are pantheons of Greek deities (Zeus, etc), Egyptian deities, Norse deities, Celtic deities...the majority of people are aware of at least SOME. They just don't believe they exist, because monotheism and atheist are the dominant perspectives in the West.
But people are aware of them. In order to form a relationship, though, they need to grant the existence of these deities as a possibility. Then they can make an approach to the deities themselves and initiate things. Make contact. Meditate, develop their psychic skills so that they can learn to perceive information from spirits, pray/speak to the deities...

This doesn't really answer my question - it basically says that most of the Western world should be aware of them and its' their fault if they don't bother making a connection. It ignores the huge part of the world that will likely never have heard of these things. I know you say they wouldn't punish anyone for not believing in them, but I can't really grasp the idea of them leaving people to suffer because they can't really be bothrered.

If someone reached out to them and was genuinely unable to provide them with gifts, then the deities would understand, I think. And the gifts that polytheist offer are not necessarily vast - I might offer some milk and honey or a glass of wine and bit of chocolate - I should think those are easy enough for most people to offer, unless they are in absolute poverty.
But yes, the deities, as I (as a pagan polytheist see it) are not bothered with people they don't know. There's no reason why they would be. Because loving and caring about the whole of humanity is not an essential property of being a deity.

Hm. As @Parker231 says, it sounds like your deities are a bit selfish and self-serving, and that they need to be given your time, money and resources in order to consider helping you, and even then, they can't do much anyway.

Thank you for sharing your views but I'm afraid all you've done is make me even more convinced that it's not for me!

I agree with you. A bunch of deities who seemingly can't be arsed to do anything much unless you give them things, lol.

They don’t do good things because it’s the right thing to do. Everyone should do the right thing without needing to be worshipped or rewarded - well as atheists that’s what we taught DC’s.

Basically there is no evidence any religion doesn’t anything good.

Yes! You summed up what feels off about it to me.

These deities just sit there and don't help anyone unless people are a) aware of them and b) give them stuff. They don't seem to be kind or good or help people because they can, or because it's what's right.

It's very transactional.

@thisishowloween \

Some of your comments suggest that you are defining deities within Christian monotheist boundaries, though. Which is why I reiterate that pagan polytheism has a very different concept of deity.

"What kind of power and influence are they supposed to have?"

In pagan polytheism, deities have specific skills and abilities in specific fields. Mercury, for example, is considered to rule travel and communication. Venus is associated with all forms of love and pleasure. Brigid is associated with the home, the hearth, poetry and healing.

So Venus might be able to help someone get laid or help someone get a boyfriend, but her skills may not cover healing people.

Brigid might be able to help someone become a better poet, but probably won't be able to help someone travel safely.

It ignores the huge part of the world that will likely never have heard of these things.

Well, from my perspective, it really doesn't matter if the rest of the world hasn't heard of those beings. They're not harmed as a consequence of not knowing about them. It makes no difference to their lives either way.

And there are other deities from other religions that they will have heard of, so can focus on them if they wish to. Should they ever learn of deities from pagan pantheons and decide they're interested in them, then they're free to do what they want with that information.

I can't really grasp the idea of them leaving people to suffer because they can't really be bothrered.

It's not always the case that all deities deliberately leave people to suffer. Since deities (in polytheist understanding) are not all-knowing, many deities are simply not aware of a lot of suffering that goes on and, since they are not all-powerful, are not able to stop it. And some deities, simply may indeed just not care enough to help if they could.

Don't you think part of why this is hard to grasp is because your view on what a deity must be has been so shaped by what Christian monotheists say it must be?

Thank you for sharing your views but I'm afraid all you've done is make me even more convinced that it's not for me!

That's fine - I don't expect it to be for you. Please understand that none of what I have posted in this thread is supposed to be an attempt to convert people; pagans are not proselytisers. I have posted in this thread to offer a different viewpoint (because monotheism and atheism are the two that tend to dominate and I think reminding people that there are other perspectives is important) and to explain the reasons why pagan polytheists believe as we do and give information on how we believe deities to be in our philosophy, as well as how we practice.

@SorcererGaheris it's not that I find the concept hard to grasp, it's just that I find the idea of having to form connections and provide gifts in order to get any support from your Gods rather transactional and off-putting, in all honesty.

All your posts have said to me is that you have deities who don't know everything, and often can't be bothered to help with what they are aware of, unless people worship them and give them things.

@thisishowloween

I think this is a case of us interpreting it in different ways. For me, the idea of building relationships and reciprocity makes sense. It seems unfair and rather entitled to just expect entities to do things for us. They are not our servants and it is not their purpose to wait on us and help us.

They can (and do) try to provide the help that they are capable of, but it's seen as a common courtesy for the person requesting a service to give something in return.

Like I said, it seems rather entitled to expect and demand something for nothing.

Is it okay if I message you? I'm really enthralled by our conversation but I keep getting notifications from this thread and I keep getting pulled away from things I'm meant to be doing 🤣

@SorcererGaheris it's not about expecting something for nothing, though.

It's about the fact that they can apparently help and alleviate people's pain and suffering, but don't bother unless they're given things. Isn't one the basic concepts of society that you should do good, kind things without expecting something back?

@Parker231

Sometimes it's a case of that. But as I've also said - in pagan polytheist philosophy, deities are considered to have limits on their powers/abilities and knowledge.

We do not consider deities to be all-powerful or all-knowing.

Many deities simply are not capable of preventing mass suffering of humanity and many are unaware of much of it.

@GarlicBreadStan

Sure, go ahead. This thread will probably close soon, anyway, I think it's very close to its limit.

I'll be eating soon, so I may not be able to get back to you right away.

@thisishowloween

It's about the fact that they can apparently help and alleviate people's pain and suffering

Not necessarily for all deities. Like I've said, many deities do not have the ability to alleviate suffering and many are not aware of all people and their suffering. They are not all-powerful or all-knowing.

Some deities may indeed be as described, but as pagan polytheists see it, deities are diverse.

Venus can help you get some action in the bedroom, but she won't be able to protect you from being murdered.

I had an experience that's left me unsure. I was having a psychotic episode, didn't realize I was ill. I was being "haunted" by demons saying and threatening the most scary evil things. I prayed to god- nothing. Saint Michael, nothing. Then Jesus. I heard a response. It said, I will save you. But then nothing happened, and I continued freaking out for several weeks, when I was finally taken seriously and given medication

I know you've said they're not all aware - but you've also said some are aware and just don't do anything, and some expect gifts and offerings before they'll do anything?

It just seems too transactional for my liking, and not very caring.

What’s the point of them? Life is much more straightforward and less complicated as an atheist.

I think this thread just shows how different we are as people, and how differently we interpret things.

For me, being a good person is about how you behave when nobody is looking - it's not about only being nice and helpful when someone gives you something or worships you.

Yes. 100%

Religion isn't compulsory !

Yes