Do you believe in God/a higher power?

[CuriousAboutWhatYouThink]

Not religion. I have no time for organised religion and the associated man made rules.

But do you believe in 'something'?

For context, my grandad was a CofE vicar but my parent rebelled against it and we were brought up broadly l in the religion (eg we celebrated main religious festivals like Easter and Christmas) but not as practising Christians and without a particular belief in God.

As an adult, I have friends of different faiths and none and it's something we have discussed from time to time. It's also something I used to discuss with my grandma who had a very strong belief in God but also believed the Bible until she became older when she still had a strong faith but admitted she thought the Bible was largely nonsense!

I suppose I've always felt that there is 'something' but I refer to it as the universe. I don't know, I always feel that there has been 'something' looking out for me.

That doesn't mean bad things have never happened because they have and religion/belief doesn't protect anyone from that. And it doesn't mean my life is anywhere near perfect because it's not. But the universe has always seemed to 'step in' when needed.

I don't know. I'm going through a tough time at the moment but I have a feeling everything will turn out to be OK because it always does.

Wonderful. Perhaps we should ask the question of our local Parish Priest, as we keep being exorted to do. At least he/she will never have been asked before if a dog that eats a miniature extraterrestrial invading force will go to heaven or hell. Maybe it will depend on whether the dog did it or purpose, or understood what it was doing. I'd love to see the reaction to that particular theological question.

@ChristmasSlacker

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia

Anecdotes are widely considered a form of evidence - hence Wikipedia's page describing it as Anecdotal evidence.

They just aren't SCIENTIFIC, OBJECTIVE evidence.

Police accept witness testimony as evidence, which is basically the same thing as anecdotes. Witness testimony is people reporting their experiences.

Actually as @GarlicBreadStan says, it does. I need evidence and proof of things in order to believe them. Without solid proof, they’re just stories.

I’m glad you’ve found a belief system you’re so passionate about but it’s not for me and never will be. I’ve read up on all kinds of religious systems over the years and none of it makes any logical sense to me whatsoever.

I’ve always put belief in God(s) under the same category as belief in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy. A fun story and tradition but nothing that’s actually based in any kind of reality.

Religion isn't faith.

Anecdotes are not proper evidence - they may be used to help build evidence, or be used alongside science or video to prove an event occurred, but they are not (as you say) objective proof that something did or did not happen.

Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable - people see what they want to see, hence all the stories of people insisting they’ve seen missing people, only for it to eventually be proven that that person had actually been dead for several years by that point.

What is it then?

@thisishowloween

I accept that paganism is not for you and never will be (or any religion, for that matter.) My point is if that autism had that much of an influence over people's propensity to believe in things beyond the material, then how does that explain that I, as an autistic person, believe in the existence of all these beings and more besides?

I believe in all deities, I believe fairies are real, I believe magic is real.

Okay, one can argue that there are always exceptions to a general rule, but the polytheist, pagan and occult communities have got quite a few autistic people. Morgan Daimler, the pagan and witch I referred you to, is autistic and she reports experiences with fairies since childhood. (She does approach her beliefs sensibly and rationally, though.)

Perhaps the autism has an effect on your perspective for you personally, but if looked at as a generalisation for autistic people generally, I don't think it holds up as well. There are plenty of autistic witches, polytheists and occultists.

I think some people are uncomfortable with the idea of death and not knowing - believing in God provides some kind of comfort.

I wasn’t speaking for every autistic person - I’m not sure why you seem to have assumed I am?

I mentioned being autistic as I am often accused of being too logical and not very emotive, so it was merely a way to try and explain my thought process.

@thisishowloween

They're not objective proof, certainly. But anecdotes are widely considered to be a form of evidence. That's why police do treat witness testimony as evidence. They don't stop there, of course, because, as you say, witness testimony is unreliable and you need much more of that to prove anything - but it is accepted as a preliminary form of evidence that justifies an investigation.

If I report an assault to a police, they'll accept that as evidence and investigate it.

Anecdotal data by itself is not proof of anything, but I contend that it is a form of evidence - a subjective, experiential kind. I don't expect people to believe based on mine or other people's experiences, but I think that personal experiences and the testimony of others are acceptable reasons for people to believe themselves.

@thisishowloween

Maybe I misread a bit, then.

Anyone who would like to understand more about why some people believe in deities (or other things beyond the physical world) - here's a post by polytheist pagan and Druid John Beckett. He explains his reasons for believing in deities.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnbeckett/2019/10/why-i-believe-in-the-gods.html

"So far I’ve talked about what I mean by belief, why it’s important even though it’s not essential, and why the question of unbelief is often more complex than we assume. But why do I believe?

Very simply, I believe in the Gods because I’ve experienced the Gods. I prayed and They answered. I listened in meditation and They spoke to me. On a few occasions, They merged a portion of Their being with mine and let me experience Their presence in my physical body.

Some of Them called me to Their service, and that work has been the most deep and meaningful experience of my life. Even though it is often very hard, and at times very scary.

To be clear, when I say “They” I mean Cernunnos, Danu, and the Morrigan. I mean Brighid and Lugh. I mean other deities from other traditions who I’ve become acquainted with and with whom I have formed relationships. Some of those relationships are brief and occasional, while others are an all day every day thing."

Nope.

I mean - yes of course people can believe whatever they want to believe, whether they have evidence or not. That’s entirely up to them.

But the issue is that they often expect other people to believe based on nothing but anecdotes or blind faith, and those people are often roundly criticised for not having faith or because they ask for proof.

I’m not going to suddenly believe in fairies because some blogger claims she’s experienced them as a child.

But that’s not an answer! It’s just some bloke saying “I believe because I believe”.

Many people would call it delusion or mental illness <awaits flaming>

@thisishowloween

I don't expect you to believe in these things as well. This is just meant to explain to you the reasons WHY polytheists such as myself believe. It's because we have experiences and we take the experiences of other people seriously.

Morgan Daimler would not expect you to believe in fairies, nor do I. It's just an explanation of her PERSONAL reasons for believing. Because of her experiences.

No. I don’t believe in any gods, despite (or maybe because 🤔) of my catholic upbringing.
But I would never say to someone’s face they’re delusional, I think if people find comfort in god then who am I to tell them otherwise.

I have had a bit of a chuckle (and have been horrified at the same time) at the numpties in America believing their day had come back in September (the Rapture). Makes you wonder what their brains are made of. I do find that people who are very religious can be quite egotistical even if they don't realise that’s how they can look to some non believers.

I intensely dislike religion. It’s strange to me how misogynistic it is but women still choose to follow it. Religion is very biased towards men (funny that) even those that put more emphasis on Mary. I also find it really distasteful that ‘god’ would impregnate a virgin, I mean how grim is that and how old (or rather, young) would she have had to be to still be an unmarried virgin in those times?

Religion, shudder 😵‍💫

@thisishowloween

I would say it is an answer. He's saying that his own experiences have caused him to believe.

People are naturally going to form opinions based on their personal experiences.

Anecdotes are indeed a form of evidence but generally can't be verified and so tend to be quite weak. It also depends on what claim is being made that the anecdote is supposed to demonstrate.

If I say I dropped a spoon and it bounced under the sofa then that's an anecdote that's so mundane that most would accept it without question. If I say I dropped a spoon and it then hovered in the air and turned into a vision of a flat earth and so now I believe in flat earth theory, it's not unreasonable for people to doubt the veracity of my claim.

I think if it was real (god/gods) then every single person on the planet should have experiences to tell, not just some here and there.

If so why are they not uncomfortable with telling non believers that they will go to hell? They don’t seem to have a very compassionate nature?

@GasperyJacquesRoberts

Anecdotes are indeed a form of evidence

Thanks for accepting that. That's the point I was trying to get across - they are agreed to be a form of evidence (probably, in themselves, the weakest form) by society and culture at large, including scientists.

It's definitely not unreasonable for other people to disbelieve or doubt other people's experiences based on their testimony alone. Which is why I (and pagan polytheists generally) do not expect other people to believe based on what we experience.

What we DO say is that it is reasonable for US to believe based on our experiences and other people's testimonies.

That’s a very good question!

@BunnyLake

Why would that necessarily the case? Deities are not particularly invested in whether or not humans in general believe they exist (perhaps the Abrahamic God is an exception to this) and so do not feel the need to make their presence/existence known generally to everyone.

While some polytheists do say that they feel they've had the experience of being "called" by deities - i.e. they feel that the relationship has been instigated by the deities - many polytheists establish a relationship by reaching out themselves.

My own personal speculation is that the deities like and enjoy a diversity of viewpoints, as well as not caring if (most) people are atheist or agnostic or theist. You get greater theological and philosophical diversity if the existence of deities is in dispute.

I also think it's possible that some people do potentially experience deities, but attribute their experience to a materialist cause - i.e. they think it's their imagination.

What he describes as an experience is what many people would describe as a delusion or psychotic break.