To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

[Horsehow]

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

"I do not think guaranteeing an 18 yr old training through to consultant job is sensible or produces the best doctors of the future. "

Is this what happens? I'd sort of assumed trainee doctors got regular exams, and if they failed they'd get kicked out of med school.
Is this not what happens?

The person that wrote that was exaggerating to try to justify the 20,802 IMGs that applied for specialty training in the UK in 2025 that has led to UK doctor unemployment. It is an attempt to undermine UK medical training and UK trained doctors.

There are 5 years of medical school exams
Foundation training for 2 years followed by 3 years further training if a GP or 7 or 8 years extra training if want to be a surgeon.

There are lots of checks and balances and exams. Doctors do not progress if fail exams .They also have a clinical and educational supervisor that are involved with assessments and getting feedback throughout their training.

However IMGs will come from different international medical schools that can be an unknown quantity because they are nor standardised like UK medical schools.

UK trained doctors will also have a DBS.

I have no medical background, but I still read through the full thread because I was shocked at some of these stats shared, and how unfair it seemed to UKG’s.

Thank you. It is heartbreaking to see how the UK government have let down the UKMGs.

On top of being unemployed these UK doctors have 100k of student debt thst is accruing interest at 8% a year.

It may come as a shock, but very nearly every graduate has student debt no matter what they studied. Look on the bright side. If they're unemployable they won't ever pay it back.

@Scotiasdarling and you won't have a doctor when you're ill

Still waiting for that list of Unis to be avoided due to their sub standard teaching ??? If it's so true surely you'd just list the names ? I'd happily screenshot it (I'm 'famous' for them) and send it to their admissions teams.

What a sour post.

The interest still accrues if unemployed. Most courses are not 5 years so student debt is higher than most.

@OneDivineHammer becoming a doctor takes years of exams, both written and practical. As well as hundreds of skills that need to be passed. Don't pass one thing you don't progress and eventually would be kicked off the course.

Once qualified there are many more competencies that have to be signed off as well as further exams. And every year you have to pass a panel to prove you are working to the required standard. Don't pass you are given time to improve but if can't then lose licence. Until consultant level.

Currently the government guarantees a job for all medical students, but some of these are now made up and provide little training. 1,000 this year. And students can express a preference where they'd like to go but can be sent anywhere.

After 2 years they apply again for either speciality training, a stand alone job or go abroad (either through choice or increasingly to just be employed). For some, they then have some stability for 3-7 years, but will still likely have to move hospitals every 6-12 months.

For others they have to apply again for a job after another 2 years. Can be sent anywhere.

Its a tough process and means a lot of instability, hard to put down roots or keep relationships stable. But thankfully people want to do it. We need doctors. We train enough doctors. We don't seem to want to employ them. And some people on here think that's a good thing ?

Thanks @mumsneedwine ! My dd has just applied for Medicine (you might remember very kindly sharing your expertise about tactical applications), and every time I venture onto the threads about UK medicine I am depressed by the state of affairs.
I see her great GCSEs and A levels, and how many courses she might apply for and end up with well-paid and hopefully satisfying job prospects at the end of it, and can't help wishing she'd have listened to me suggesting other avenues. But there you go; she's drawn to medicine.
(almost half hoping she gets no interviews/offers and gives up her dream, tbh. Bad mother.) 😬

@OneDivineHammer😊 it's not all gloom. Things are changing and hopefully by the time your DD qualifies this mess will be sorted. My own DD loves her job. She'd like the NHS to work better (less stupid admin and a working keyboard) but it will take a brave politician to tackle that.

PS expect some flack for (a) saying I was slightly helpful (b) tactically applying, as according to some on here there are only 5 medical schools with going to 😂😂😂😂

https://medical.hee.nhs.uk/medical-training-recruitment/news/changes-to-medical-specialty-training-recruitment-for-2026

I'm not sure that this has been posted yet - not quite sure why not.

Also OneDivineHammer, under the current system, strong applicants have a good degree of control over where they accept a training post. An applicant with a high ranking can choose, rather than being 'sent'. So what mumsneedwine said ('Can be sent anywhere') was unnecessarily alarmist, certainly for those at the higher end).

Thanks both.
So how does the choosing a training post work, dependant on one's ranking (is that in final exams?)

Don't be fooled, your instincts were correct. I keep away from threads that discuss tactical applications because I think that anyone who is inclined to take advice from their mothers on how to selfishly game admissions, gleaned from unknowns on the internet, deserves what is coming.

However, my advice to friends and relations considering medicine is "don't". If they seem determined to go ahead anyway, I explain what they can expect. In that way, they might be a little better prepared than the 80%+ of medical students who lose enthusiasm for working in the NHS before even qualifying.

I ask them to consider why the best paid degree courses with the best employment prospects accept applicants with a level of attainment achieved by one in four pupils.

I explain that medical school admissions are expanding because of the failure to retain doctors; I probably mention the workforce reports that are annually produced by the GMC that show how many doctors retire from senior posts every year and how many doctors leave never having reached that point; and I contrast the working conditions (and pay) of the minority who reach the top of the career ladder with the return from similar effort and ability in other professions.

doi:10.1136/ bmjopen-2023-075598

www.gmc-uk.org/about/what-we-do-and-why/data-and-research/the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk/archived-the-state-of-medical-education-and-practice-in-the-uk-reports

On the matter of screenshots, I note that one for this has not been forthcoming, given your liberal and random use of them to date, this is extraordinary - or perhaps not given the outstanding FOI?

Were you mistaken or lying? I have generously assumed the former.

You will find data on medical schools and postgraduate exam performance here and in the references. Sorry, no screenshot, you will have to read it. You don't need to inform the universities. They know - obviously.

doi.org/10.1186/s12916-020-01572-3

Very good to have this point underlined strongly because it usually gets nowhere on these threads. Apparently lawyers are only boring and necessary for conveyancing, nothing more profound:

'Medical schools differ in large numbers of ways that are causally interconnected. Differences between schools in postgraduate examination performance, training problems and GMC sanctions have important implications for the quality of patient care and patient safety.'

On your first point Marchesman, strongly seconded: no Y13 should need to resort to 'tactical applications'. The difficulty of getting into a decent medical school has been massively exaggerated on MN for as long as I can remember, for obvious reasons which I won't spell out. Anyone who can't look at the uni websites themselves and needs to apply tactically shouldn't apply at all, because it's highly likely to end in tears a few years down the line, one way or the other. Obviously better if the tears flow due to not getting into specialty training; much less good if the tears flow due to being at the end of a clinical negligence claim, having caused real harm or worse.

@Marchesman some of us work. I'm teaching most of today. I'm sure you can use google ! But I'll inform you later as you can't seem to use the internet

I'm a selfish mother now 😂😂. Mines an ST1, what have I got to gain helping others ?

Seems like some people just don't like UK students becoming doctors.

I am quite shocked at the posts about potential medical school students' applications.Have they heard of widening participation?

Looks like want the UK medical profession for IMGs and the elite.

Widening participation has nothing whatsoever to do with 'tactical applications' for weaker students PurpleFairyLights. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of widening participation and what medical schools have done and are doing to address the issue of under representation.

I hope that you welcome the changes that 'Wes' has introduced for 2026, as per the link above.

It really does. Some of the WP cohort of students often do not have the advantages that for example, private school pupils have. Therefore tactical applications would be a useful tool.

How anyone can see tactical applications as a sign of lack of academic ability is beyond me.

Can I ask a quick question? Not intending to be part of the current pile on, and with no agenda, just interested in the process following general chats with dd who is settling in and finding her feet...

My d (current F1) is working alongside some F1s who are UK citizens and UK educated up to A level, then studied medicine in places like Eastern Europe, at institutions linked to British unis - I think she said one was at a place linked to Newcastle Uni. Do students in this situation access F1/2 jobs the same way as the final year med students of their linked unis (the infamous random number generator) or is there a different mechanism? Are they classed as UK grads or international grads?

PurpleFairyLights, with the greatest of respect, you do say regularly that a lot of things are 'beyond you'. That definitely does seem to be the case: your words though, not mine.