To finally agree with a junior doctors strike

[Horsehow]

Junior doctors have decided to strike as they are being overlooked for jobs / training posts which are instead given to international applicants. I’ve always abhorred their money grabbing strikes in the past, but support this one 100%. UK doctors should be recruited where possible, and international graduates only turned to where we cannot find a suitable recruit in the UK.

UK specialty training is our future GPs and consultants.What a perilous way to do UK NHS workforce planning.

Found this
https://c.org/NcfWKJsJSB

Then you don't understood how medicine works.

Foreign graduates have been the backbone of DGHs, and in fact the NHS as a whole, for at least fifty years. It has been a mutually beneficial arrangement, they provided a service and in return acquired experience (training is a misnomer) and then typically left.

The number of juniors that are required to staff specialities and the rapidity with which they move through training would otherwise have resulted in mass medical unemployment at the end of training, because consultants stay in post for 20 or 30 years.

Furthermore, selection at the point of entry to medical school has become dysfunctional, exacerbating longstanding problems with retention. Most UK doctors with two year's experience choose not to apply for training posts, and of those who enter training one in five or six depending on the speciality will drop out. We really need more "IMG"s, not fewer.

Be grateful for your neighbours.

No-one is grateful for unemployed UKMGs or IMGs training in the UK and then taking their skills and knowledge elsewhere. It would be wise to start reading the room.

IMGs in the past filled vacancies left by UKMGs. They did not compete with UKMGs for the same jobs. UKMGs and EUMGs took priority. Same situation that UKMGs have if they want to work in Oz.

The problem that you always ignore is that now 63% of applicants for specialty training are IMGs leaving UKMGs unemployed.

With legal migration numbers being so high how can the Labour government justify giving visas to IMGs when UKMGs are unemployed?

The room filled with BMA union reps? Ill-informed helicopter mothers? Which particular "room" are you talking about?

Sorry to say this but with only 2000 consultant/GP retirements per year and 12,000 medical graduates, the concept of doctors "taking their skills and knowledge elsewhere" is a given.

Abroad vs Burger King, I would be more grateful for abroad, thanks.

Always strikes me as odd that some posters only appear during the UK night. Almost like they are not in the same time zone ...

We understand how medicine works v clearly. Again, when you don't like the argument you patronise and turn to insults. We don't have a shortage of doctors any more so there is less need to recruit from abroad. But this means some people will make less money. PLAB is expensive.

Fortunately the tide has turned and UK prioritisation is coming. Too slow to prevent more doctor unemployment but the press have picked up on this and winter pressures already hitting so it's not a good look. 24 hour waits in A&E while UK doctors drive Ubers to pay the bills.

So our UKMGs have to leave the country to make way for IMGs?

The room is the UK. Immigration is one of the top priorities for many voting people in the UK. If these levels of legal migration continue the UK will end up with a Reform government.

Applicants not appointees? If it was 63% of appointees and there are unemployed UKGs, I agree that is a problem.

A lot of FY2s did not apply for specialty training. I know a lot who are planning a year out, to go travelling, to locum, to work overseas. Similarly quite a few IMT3s didn’t apply for training either. People who want to do dermatology, cardiology etc and want to improve their CV, or who want to spend a year as a teaching fellow, or who want a year out. They do plan to return to training eventually, just not this year.

If there are large numbers who applied for training and were unsuccessful then yes I do agree that is a problem. I am more than willing to believe that is the case - I just haven’t seen any data to confirm that yet.

I think the large numbers taking a year out, working LTFT for lifestyle reasons (not caring commitments or health), not sitting exams etc is a different but actually greater problem tbh - we have some very unhappy and disaffected resident doctors. A lot who fundamentally don’t enjoy the job of being a doctor. I don’t know what you do about that, because the things they complain about are exactly the same when you are a consultant, and the same in every country I have worked in. The hours, dealing with demanding patients and relatives, dealing with clinical uncertainty, keeping up with clinic admin, meeting revalidation requirements, the politics of working in an MDT. None of those things are going to change as they progress, in fact they will probably get worse.

Not everyone is a teacher. Teachers on MN appear to have a remarkable ability to type right through the school day. Our HT would be raging if any member of his staff spent free periods tapping on MN. But my point is really that many people are busy during the working day and therefore tend to post more commonly in the evening.

I’m currently in Venice drinking coffee by the Grand Canal, so you’re correct about time zone for me, up to a point.

If you want to say you think posters are fifth columnists, honestly it might be better to just say it rather than making incredibly laboured inferences.

Same old people complaining about UKGs. Same old insults when we don't agree with them. No idea why they don't like doctors trained here.

Doctors are unemployed. This is stupid. End.

Mine was a straightforward reply to your own post implying that any one with a different position to your own must be non UK.

But you’re quite right about Groundhog Day. A number of posters, clearly with successful medical careers, have so totally undermined the bases of your complaints that there really is almost nothing left for you to say.

"We understand how medicine works v clearly."

Quite clearly you know more than people who have worked and are working in the NHS now, supporting doctors, training doctors and guiding them through their careers.

There are some on here that say they are doctors but clearly do not have a high regard for UKMGs and support IMGs above UKMGs. This is a concern.

@Tigerbalmshark

Three-quarters of doctors in training posts are UK graduates.

The BMA and practically everyone else has this the wrong way round. Life used to be very much harder for juniors. But crucially, at every step of the career ladder things improved - I still recall being an SHO, starting my first weekend on call, and the visceral relief that came from remembering that I had a house officer.

When training was shortened the intention was to scrap the SR post, what happened in all but name was that the consultant post was scrapped, and this was followed by a creeping erosion of autonomy, professionalism, and efficiency. The present consultant post would have been an implausible Orwellian fantasy forty years ago. Consequently, in an inversion of the past, it is a demonstrable fact that the more exposure medical students and juniors have to the NHS the less they want to work in it.

The only way to improve retention (and reduce our dependency on "IMG"s) is to improve the day to day experiences of consultants. Until then, the only happy people in the NHS will be the ones who know they are not stuck with it forever.

I have extremely high regard for some UKMGs and IMGS but not all. Some are not of the right temperament, have chosen the wrong career and some struggle to take the ultimate decisions that make the best consultants, GPs, researchers etc.

Not all UKMGS/IMGS are made equal and I would rather the process through competition weeds out those who are not suited, not up to it and help them find something they truly want to do. Your blind belief that a UK medical school selection process at 17 yrs old gets it right every time and that at 17 you should be guaranteed a training/job for your whole career without facing a few challenges along the way - is fundamentally wrong and bad for patient care.

I have helped UKMGs leave medicine and supported their decision to go and try the big wide world. Some have come back and some are extremely successful in the City, Artist, Writer, lawyers, advertising, big Pharma and many more. Having the opportunity to step off the medical treadmill and try something different is priceless. Run through training does not afford a resident that luxury which is to theirs and their patients detriment.

I have no issue with IMGs or UKMGs, have trained and been treated by both who have been brilliant.

Purple - how you extrapolate what you have out of what I said is pure fantasy. your bitterness, at your son facing a road block for the first time since he was 18 is quite telling. An extra year of training which he has obtained will make him more prepared for the next step and is never wasted.

Why are you only supporting UKMGs to leave medicine? Surely there are IMGs that are unsuitable too?

I am very angry that so many IMGs are applying for UK specialty training places leaving UKMGs unemployed.

Why should our F2s be in competition with IMGs that have been doctors for 20+ years?

Not a level playing field. It is ridiculous that you think 2 years vs 20 years experience is a fair system to weed out unsuitable UKMGs. No mention of unsuitable IMGs being helped to leave medicine....why only UKMGs helped to leave medicine?

The supporters of this system that say they are doctors have a very limited understanding of where this country will end up if this continued Boris Wave of legal migration is not stopped.

How can Labour allow IMGs to get work visas when their own UK trained doctors are unemployed?

Once again you pick on something and take it out of context - I support UKMGS to explore new possibilities and to stay in training. I am less likely to have to support IMGS to leave medicine but will do if they express an interest, because - there are less of them, if you have made the commitment to emigrate you have usually made the decision medicine is for you. Run through training is not good for everyone.

I have not seen a single numbered CT trainee who has 20 yrs experience in medicine. Sitting in Trust jobs with experience absolutely, working hard and making a living for their families and I challenge you to show me the statistics on that say there are numbered CT trainees in the UK with 20 yrs experience from overseas.

you are spouting unevidenced based facts yet again.

Your son has faced a road block but is gainfully employed learning his craft and new skills. More than likely he will progress next year if suitable. You do not know why he did not get a number, you do not know how many IMGs got numbers and you do not know how many years experience they had.

How many unemployed doctors are there - no one knows.

It is estimated that there are 20,000 unemployed resident doctors. There were over 20,000 IMGs applying for Specialty Training in 2025.

Being unpleasant about my son does not take away the fact that the UK needs to prioritise its own graduates. Like 93 other countries do. The UK did this until 2020.

Your reasoning for not helping IMGs leave medicine is odd and concerning. Just because someone has emigrated to the UK does not necessarily make them good doctors. A quick look on GMC website will give you plenty of examples.

If you are a consultant you need to treat UKMGs and IMGs equally and not just help UKMGs that you feel are unsuitable leave medicine. You need to do the same for IMGs.

20,803 IMGs applied in 2025

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

I am beginning to think you are unable to read. I will support any doctor UKMG or IMG to pursue what they want to do. Unlike you I do not care where they came from just that they are competent and trainable and have the attributes that make a good doctor.

Just because 20000 IMGs applied does not mean 20000 got jobs and does not mean that 20000 UKMGs are not in work - please show me the evidence for such a ridiculous statement, There is an estimate for 20000 unemployed doctors but no one knows - also many are unemployed for reasons other than the one you are obsessed with.

None of our CT1 numbered posts in my department and at least 4 others in the hospital have an IMG in those posts. I am sure you will come up with some spurious reason for that.

I have not been unpleasant about your son. just pointed out that he is experiencing what many doctors have for decades. Rather than blaming some faceless IMG - we got on with life and took it as training. Your son seems to have grasped the concept even if you have not.

What an immature comment about my ability to read. Not very becoming for a self professed medical professional.

Maybe easier to read