A double one on Rugby

[JamieCannister]

AIBU to say that Mumsnet is putting girls at risk by allowing the promotion on rugby on this site?

AIBU to say that given the risks of head injuries children under 18 (or maybe people with not-yet-fully-developed brains under 25) should not be allowed to consent to play contact rugby?

Many rugby players never get even one head injury.

I hope you don't let your children ride bikes, or scooters.

We don't all want to raise a bunch of milksops.

Have you deliberately decided today's the day for a thread like this when one of England's past rugby captains has just announced he has MND?

Seems a little insensitive and poor taste to start the baiting.

You’re being unreasonable on both counts. Both my sons played from ages 8/9 right up until they were in their 20s. It was their choice and loved it. They have formed life long friendships and learned the value of teamwork. As long as children are playing for a club that is affiliated to the RFU then there are guidelines and regulations in place relating to safety etc.
OP, what would you do if your child was at a school where rugby was part of the PE curriculum? Do your children ride bikes etc.
We can’t wrap our children up in cotton wool.

DS plays. He’s 9. It’s such an incredibly supportive and encouraging environment.

He is short, skinny and quite sensitive, so definitely not your average rugby player. But there is none of the machismo you get with football. The coaches are really supportive and build the kids up. The dads shouting on the touchline are shouting positive things and clap both sides’ tries. The matches aren’t even scored at this age because it really isn’t about winning or losing. And honestly it is nice for a boy who is an only child to have other boys who like jumping all over each other and having that physical contact. And it is nice to have a sport to follow on TV (playing age grade rugby makes 6 nations seem more relatable)

I doubt he’ll carry on into secondary school because he is small and skinny and once the other kids hit puberty the size difference won’t be fun for him. But for the minute, it is great for him. No injuries in his age group so far, there are 50 of them and they have been playing for 4 years.

Unfortunately the MND is particularly associated with athletes and those that professional or intensively exercise a lot. It is not especially associated with rugby players, equally effects football players and intensive gym goers and is not related to impacts to the head.

On the other hand a lack of exercise will cause other health issues.

As with all things exercise or alcohol or in my case Galaxy chocolate bars - it should be "everything in moderation "

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57431412?app-referrer=webview

I think promoting rugby for months on end when it kills is F-ING EVIL. I believe my thread is the very opposite of insensitive and in bad taste. Moody's diagnosis is precisely why I have posted this after months of getting angry seeing mumsnet promote a sport which kills.

🙄

The riskiest sport, by far, for young people to be involved in is equestrian sport. And yet we never get these sort of hand-wringing posts about eventing.

Look OP, we get it. You hate rugby and everything that it represents. However, not everyone shares your view. The sport at minis age groups doesn't consist of much more than a bunch of children running around in the fresh air chucking a ball around anyway. Head injuries, whether actual or suspected, are taken extremely seriously these days. But you won't be interested in hearing that.

So unreasonable. Rugby is such an inclusive sport for all ages and sexes.

You have the right to have an opinion.
It doesn't make you right or relevant 😂.

Don't encourage your kids to practice any sport, the risks of being inactive are way worst, but each to their own.

You might want to start researching the effect of child birth, carcinogen, inactivity, depression and anything that affect mental health negatively. You are in for a treat.

Pretty much all sport carries risk of injury or long term disability. Unless you are talking about snooker or darts. That said I doubt whether leaning over a table for half your life does your back any good.

People tend to minimise the risks of sports they like and don't want to consider the risks. Try arguing about the dangers of horseriding on this site.

If you stop all sport your risk of injury will be low, but you will not get the enjoyment of playing sport aggressively and competitively during your youth, when it is the only time you can really do it.

But MND is correlated to all types of athletes, football players, athletics and obsessive gym goers.

And on that basis the promotion of all sports, athletics and gym going is "f'ing evil."

"The MND Association acknowledges there is a "correlation" between contact sports and MND. It added that while the athletes studied were more likely to develop MND, it did not show the sports directly caused the condition."

The reality as with all things including exercise is "everything in moderation".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57431412?app-referrer=deep-link

I'm not sure that there's currently sufficient evidence to support the kind of restrictions you're suggesting OP but I do understand your concerns and I certainly didn't encourage my DC to play any more rugby beyond that which was mandatory at school. (Or an other sports where repeated head injury is a feature come to that. I would never have allowed them to do boxing under any circumstances.)
Obviously there are risks in all sports. I sail and have been concussed after being bashed on the head by the boom. All my DC also do or have done sports that carry a risk of acute injury. And freak accidents can and do occur in all walks of life. We cannot live risk free lives and attempting to do so would be totally miserable. But the difference is that whilst I know every time I go sailing I could get hit on the head by the boom, and every time my DS plays hockey he could be brain injured by a stick or ball most times that won't happen. But when you play rugby you know that you will be making repeated vigorous physical contact with other people as that* *is an intrinsic part of the sport.

I agree that rugby, and sport in general, has made big strides in the recognition and management of brain injuries. I think that just about every sport's governing body in this country has a concussion protocol now which is excellent. But that only gets triggered once a player is showing some signs of a brain injury. What it doesn't address is the cumulative effect of repeated micro trauma. Some sports, rugby included, involve a lot of bashing of heads which don't manifest as an actual brain injury at the time but the repeated effect may well be damaging over time. It's that which I think is still a big worry and I hope we'll find out a lot more in the coming years.
That's the difference between contact sports like rugby and a lot of the other situations people are mentioning. Yes, you might get a significant brain injury if you fall off your bike, crash your car, slip down the stairs etc but on all the occasions that you do those things and don't have an accident you suffer zero trauma to your brain. But the nature of some sports means that not only is acute brain injury is more likely than in others but also repeated micro trauma is pretty much inevitable. The potential effect of all those low level impacts concerns me a lot. Obviously there are lots of physical and mental benefits to participation in sport too and you have to weigh those against the risks. But my personal opinion is that there are lots of great sports and activities that you can do that don't have that particular risk (though of course they all have some) so I encouraged my own children in different directions. But that is my personal view and whilst I'd encourage people to think about it I wouldn't go as far as saying that nobody should allow their children to play rugby - I don't think there's currently enough evidence for that.

Life kills OP - the only way to avoid death is to never live

the question is at what level of risk is appropriate?
and that’s personal - people deserve facts so they can make choices

being fat kills
drinking alcohol kills
getting in a car kills
sitting around all day kills
meat kills

Can vouch for this. My youngest two play rugby and it's all about safety. Constant reminders re: gum shields. If you don't have it, you're not participating. And not aware of any head injuries at mini level.

I have another two older DC who participate in fencing which is low contact. They are not interested in contact sports like rugby

As long as risks are discussed I don't see a problem.

Came here to say this. It isn't rugby specifically, it is intense sport that increases risks. And multifactorial.

From my personal experience I actually think that rugby as a sport is especially beneficial to young girls (possibly even more so than boys).

Teenage girls are under incredible pressure from social media and their peers to look a certain way to act a certain way- to be the "popular girl".

The core values of rugby are Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship.

Just taking some of these, girls rugby is massively social able, much more than the boys rugby- you only have to look at the joking around and laughs of the England team. Thats not to say they don't take it seriously but that they have so much fun in doing so.

Respect - girls are judged on whether they do their job on the pitch and look after their teammates. If a girl doesn't put the effort in then another girl has to which means she is more likely to get hurt.

Or more simply the girls really don't give a crap who you are dating, where you live, your skin colour, who your friends are etc etc . All they care about is that their teammates put the effort in which that stops or reduce the chances of the other girls being hurt.

It reduces the chances of girls being bullied at school - because the girls are incredibly loyal to their teammates (much more than the boys). And let's be honest you would have to be a special level of stupid to pick on one of the rugby girls at school.

Rugby as a sport is for girls of all shapes and sizes- your bigger girls for the forwards and skinny fast girls for the backs. They are all equally valued with a different job for different sized / skilled girls.

Teamwork- many sports favoured by girls tend to be individual sports (horse riding, swimming, tennis etc) because of the element of physical risk rugby creates a bonding amongst the girls far greater than other team sports.

So yes there is a physical risk to girls playing rugby but in my experience the benefits outweigh the risks.

I stand by what I said. It is poor taste to use Lewis Moody's MND diagnosis for your own personal crusade.

Many of these players Rob Burrow, Doddie Weir and now Lewis Moody all played rugby long before all the research into concussion and head injuries. The sport and science has changed since they played, they are no longer allowed to continue to play if they get a head injury, high tackles are a red card.

Use it to bring awareness to MND but to use it because you don't like something is in poor taste.

P.S cars kill shall we ban them as well?

We come from a big rugby nation but personally know so many young people who have sustained serious injuries from rugby, some life changing m, that we haven’t allowed our DCs to play it.

This

I withdrew mine from Rugby at school after watching a few matches. Their brains aren't matured and are vulnerable to injury.

You can tell it will be a huge health scandal in years to come.

That’s quite the leap. No I am not like a mother of a trans child? my daughter isn’t trans because she plays rugby.

the team is mixed and she is the only girl. The boys aren’t ‘forced’ to play with her. She’s allowed to play mixed until she’s in high school. Their physical stature at the age of 9 is very similar. The boys are her friends and they don’t treat her any differently- they’re clearly way more accepting than you are.

my daughter also plays netball and dances.

i am not letting her down massively for letting her play a sport she loves. I doubt she’s going to become a professional rugby player. The children play together safely and with a lot of supervision. She’s happy and safe and loves it and will continue to be allowed to go.

how odd you would link a little girl playing rugby with her friends to being a trans child. That’s a really sad attitude to have.