Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

Children in previous generations managed to develop perfectly well before things like baby and toddler groups became a thing. Support like that is a very first world privilege thing. It is not essential for a child’s learning or development, unless you are saying that children all over the wired who don’t have access to health visitors and baby groups are all likely to be suffering with developmental delays.

mine has a genetic disorder and was in childcare since 1. No amount of early childcare would have changed the fact that DC wasn't 'school ready'. 🤷 we were lucky though to have access to childcare. that isn't the case for all disabled children.

That’s a fair point. I do wonder as well if a lack of a normal daily routine was harmful to the children who were toddlers or in preschool.

Friend of mine is a reception class teacher and she has often spoken about how much time is taken up helping children who do not have basic skills and how it impacts on their formal learning.

Sure start closed because they weren't reaching the people they were targeting. It ended up that parents who already had the skills and resources that sure start intended to bring were using it, and those parents who it intended to help weren't using it.

She is not my only, or indeed first, child so advice not needed thanks 😀

There’s definitely been a shift and what were seen as obvious basics no longer on radar of some parents.
A guiding leader I know got a complaint emailed about rainbows as girl been mildly told she needed to listen to the adult in charge speaking. Apparently mum thought it was ridiculous to expect a 4 yr old to do that. There was a post on here someone upset that child had been told to sit on bum on carpet in reception. I’d have thought they would be none controversial basics.
Another friend worked in a school kitchen in a deprived area and lots of the children had never used cutlery and some were used to being spoon fed. Schools can’t have lots of children sitting there like baby birds, they need children who can attempt to eat their lunch.

If children at the age appropriate level are in the minority, maybe the expectations of young children need to change

What, because we are evolving to actually be less capable than children were 30 years ago?

These age related expectations are not fabricated from thin air. They are based on what ordinary children were able to manage at 4 or 5 not so many years ago. Yes there has to be support in the community but parents also need to take some ownership of teaching their DC the basics.

You describe it perfectly as to what is expected. I think what people are forgetting, is that some of the children that can’t do those things are likely to be the ones that have disability/special needs that haven’t been diagnosed at that point.

Many things are intuitive like sitting quietly, follow instructions, those things don’t need to be ‘taught’ so even children from deprived/complex backgrounds would be able to do those things.

They're not teaching the same things that British children are taught at age 4.

Even my own DCs, who went to preschool in the US at age 4, and kindergarten at 5, learned to identify their own name on their little cubby, to hang up their bag and jacket, to hold a friend's hand and walk in a line through the school and out on nature walks, to clear up activities they had finished (crayons, paints, dress up stuff, toys back in their boxes, snack plates and cups to the classroom sink). They sat on a rug for storytime and listened to stories. They did show and tell once a week.Their school day was two and a half hours, four days a week. The following year they had a five day schedule, but still two and a half hours a day. The school.offered morning or afternoon sessions. They did a lot of self care practice, a lot of classroom etiquette,, a lot of pre math activities like puzzles, comparing large/small/deep/shallow, etc, and curiosity about the printed word was encouraged. Phonics properly began in first grade. My DCs were reading by age 3-4 but there's a lot more to child development than cognitive growth.

People who work closely with children and who have a lot of previous experience of children at school starting age can usually make a pretty well educated guess at the children who are likely to be diagnosed with SEN in future or those who would have been fine if their parents had engaged with them. It’s not too hard to tell the difference.

So why are so many parents lied to and told it can't possible be any ND often till the wheels fall off with the kids ?

Or is this going to be oh well they aren't really ND - we overdiagionsed now bullshit.

I'm sure there parents out there who aren't doing what they should be - but there a lot like us with chidlren who do turn out to be ND only we find out much later and we were doing a hell of a lot more than many parents to get kids to the basics.

There’s definitely an attitude shift of lower expectations.

When we were children we had to go to shops as online shopping didn’t exist.

we didn’t have screen to amuse us so we had to learn to be patient and just be with our thoughts.

I read on here all the time it’s cruel to make a 2yo go to the shopping centre as it’s boring. Well yes, it probably is for a 2yo. But it won’t kill them and they’ll learn basic skills. I popped into town yesterday and there were far too many (IMO) 2/3yos in pushchairs watching their parents phone.

starmer was born on the 2nd of September so will have been the oldest in his year.
im a summer baby and was one of the youngest in the year. My little girl was born right at the end of August. Regardless of her ability I will be holding her back a year. I wish there had been that opportunity for me

My children were taught this at nursery in the uk but I really don’t think this is any different? Recognising your name on your peg, holding hands, clearing up, pouring water jugs at lunch, sitting on the rug for stories etc are taught in pre school here (3) but would continue into reception.

If my DD3 had had to start school at 4, she would still have been in nappies or pull ups there. Thankfully, we're in Scotland so she actually began school at five, fully continent, as per my previous post. Also thankfully, having three children, the elder two of which were out of nappies day and night by three, and who are now in their twenties, and DD3 in her teens, I know that all children develop differently, so I don't give a shit about any shaming crap. 👍🙂

Nurseries tend to support potty training really well though, although of course they don’t do it for you.

The kids who aren’t toilet trained on starting school tend not to have been to nursery. It’s usually those kept at home and with a parent almost exclusively until they’re 4/5 that struggle - obviously not if it’s a good parent, of whom there are many amongst SAHPs, but the rubbish parents within this group.

Also I don’t think Starmer “wants both parents working”, he just wants them to have that choice. Supporting parents will subsidised nursery will cost as much as the govt gets in tax from those parents. And you do know he doesn’t personally keep the taxes!?

There’s definitely an attitude shift of lower expectations.

I do agree with that.

Though I think that they made it easier to defer a year is a postive move that's happened since mine started school.

I don’t think the govt is making policy based on Starmer’s birthday!

I disagree.

Children who have never been expected to sit down in a specific spot to eat a meal, children who tare allowed to ake a few bites and then hop up to run around, children who are parked in front of a tablet for long stretches every day, children who are disrracted by a tablet instead of being conversed with when doing daily stuff like going to the supermarket, children who are never read to, children who are never taken to places where they can't run around, climb, or roll on the grass are all turning up in schools where they are expected to sit down, to.engage in conversations with teachers, to have an interest in a story a teacher is reading, etc.

Many things are intuitive like sitting quietly, follow instructions, those things don’t need to be ‘taught’ so even children from deprived/complex backgrounds would be able to do those things.

Sadly, this really isn't true.
Children given a lot of screen time, sat in a pub with dads phone etc tend to have poor attention span or won't sit quietly unless there's a screen involved. Children who live in homes where there are low demands and few meaningful consequences if they don't follow instructions, tend to be poor at following them/doing things they don't want to do.

We have a free stay and play which is run by the council. They have weeks where different professions come in to give talks and advice on dental care, potty training, behaviour etc. All the mums who attend are middle class sahm, none seem to need the help. How do you force those struggling to use services?

Tbh aren’t a huge number of the people these services were aimed at just at work?!

I remember sure start, 11am stay and play on a Tuesday morning and similar.

This. Some parents just can't be arsed and I don't see the point in denying that.

If the children who can be school ready are, it will leavethe school staff more time to help the children who need more help.

Just an anecdotal story re starting school -

My Mum was a SAHM and I could read before starting school - but the school wouldn’t believe it and held me back behind those who’d been to preschool. I was not happy!

Shed also taught me weights and measures - but they were all imperial and school were of course teaching metric! I remember not being happy about that either (now I think exclusively in metric and can’t remember the how imperial measurements work at all).

It was a bad start in a primary school where I was never happy. Loved secondary school where they treated you as a person.