Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

Agreed. Mine was in reusables and dry by 18 months.

But don't forget, this is our money, your's, mine, indeed all tax-payers money. Are there not higher priorities? If we were asked if our taxes should be used on toilet training children to save their parents doing it, what do you think the answer might be? I know what mine would be. It just seems to me that we've got to a point in this country where people (generally and I know there are exceptions) assume their problems are someone else's responsibility to fix. This is one of those problems in my view and it's about time parents stepped up to the mark.

Excellent point

It's not spending money to help parents toilet train their children or do parents jobs for them. It's spending money on sure start centres which were proven to have a positive effect on children's progression when they were in place and which picked up problems early.

I don't know why you think this is a particular problem with "today's" parents. 20 years ago sure start centres existed and were funded by taxpayers. Then in 2008 the government had to spend 100s of billions bailing out banks who had gotten to the point of bankruptcy due to greed. And a new government came in and said we had to have austerity to pay back the massive debt caused by bailing out the banks. So all the sure start centres closed and there were less resources and in the end the unseen costs of austerity cost the government more. And then when the EU wanted to introduce banking regulation some of the same people who had benefitted from the bank bail out spent money on media campaigns telling everyone the EU was the reason there was no money for public services. So we left the EU. And there still wasn't money for public services. And now the bankers own media outlets and are in political parties and mysteriously still find other people to blame. The End.
Children not learning to use the toilet in time are not the reason this country is struggling. But helping parents and children in the early years is a proven low cost way to improve outcomes all round.

This is an interesting read. My own DGD is autistic. She has been reading since she was two, she will be 4 in February. She can spell quite a lot too with her magnetic alphabet letters and is starting to form letters on those wipe on wipe off books with the dots. She can also count. However she is not potty trained yet. I told my DD in law how I potty trained my sons when they were 18 months old. She didn't believe me as how could they have had the words? I told her they didn't need words. i simply had them out on the lawn with no nappy and when I saw them begin to squat I guided them to the potty and praised them when they used it. So she tried to do it this summer at home but DGD hadn't got the knack and nursery were not prepared to continue with training. They said to wait until she had the words to tell them! I think a big part of the problem is there are a lot of working mum's now who don't have enough days in which to teach their little ones to use the potty. I had the privilege of being a stay at home mum and I think that made a great difference. My DGD sometimes tells you after she has wee'd or soiled her nappy but not before! I also think disposable nappies that wick away the wetness have a lot to do with it too. Children do not feel uncomfortable in them when soiled. I really don't know what the answer is. Incidentally my DGD learnt to read because she had electronic toys that told her the letters and what they say as in 'A says A (spoken phonetically) A for apple and so on. She used to press the buttons and listen to them over and over again. I had bought her a book with animals, most of which she already knew until she came to Emu. My husband saw her reading out loud and she said 'Em U. My husband told her the correct way and she accepted it. However she was reading a new book 'The pigeon has to go to school' On the 1st page the pigeon says 'Don't read that title' My DGD read it as tit el and wouldn't accept the correct pronunciation until she heard someone on You tube reading the the story. it was the same when reading a title on TV Jurassic titans, she pronounced it as Tit ans. Her mum told nursery she could read and they just sort of smiled, Then one of the staff saw her reading a book and then the back of the book with no pictures. So the staff wrote short words on a white board , cow, cat, dog that sort of thing and she just read them straight off. Then they tried longer words like caterpillar, butterfly and xylophone. which she read with ease. They then accepted that she could indeed read. She is now in a higher set at nursery and while she sat reading a book out loud to the teacher some other children came over to listen. My concern is when she gets to proper school will she be held back by those who cannot read? My DD in law has been fighting to get her EHCP which she has been accepted for (although she won't get a medical diagnosis until she is 5 years old) and she will get funding for a TA when she is at big school. My DGD is emotionally about a year behind her peers. She is very stubborn, doesn't like loud noises, rarely mixes with the other children. Totally ignores requests from adults if she has her nose stuck in a book! The local council along with other professionals have decided she can go to a main stream school with a TA but I really worry that she will be kept behind in that setting.

My cousin works as a teaching assistant. She told us of a little boy who started this year who genuinely didn’t know how to turn the page of a physical book. I am absolutely not making this up despite how it sounds. It is one of the saddest things I’ve ever heard.

You sound like a lovely grandma.

Your dil was given terrible advice when told to wait until her child had the words to say she needed the toilet. There are children of that age and older that are non verbal but are fully toilet trained and able to communicate their need to go. They won’t know what children are capable of if they don’t give them the opportunity to try. I agree with you that todays nappies and pull ups don’t help children that need help to learn to recognise the feelings associated with toilet training and are a huge hindrance.

I understand your concerns about your dgc starting school, but I think your worry may be misplaced. While it is likely that in reception, your child will have children around her that have less understanding of letters, there may will be others that start school able to read, or at least have a secure enough start that they will pick it up and match your dgcs level very quickly. Going through the standard phonics teaching will help with spelling and understanding of alternative sounds, and all the words that don’t follow the rules, even if she already knows how to read. It sounds like there will be other skills that your dgd will need support to learn in reception, and they are all equally as important as learning to read. It’s great that she will be able to start school with reading confidence, and it means that more time and focus can be given to the social, emotional regulation, and independence skills that she needs support with.

My 3yr old grandson is out of nappies during the day and usually gets up in the night if he needs the loo although the occasional accident does occur. Both parents are working full-time and my daughter is a teacher.

In my experience (3 children and 4 grandchildren) being able to read before starting school is a bonus. But let's face it, that is what the teachers are for; they don't become teachers to potty train other people's children. It seems to me, especially if parents don't have a lot of time because of work, the priority ought to be toilet training and being able to feed themselves, not learning to read if it is at the expense of the former.

In the case of my DGD we didn't teach her to read! Yes we read to her but she taught herself with the use of her electronic toys. She has a second hand dinosaur that tells you the alphabet ABC etc it also tells you the phonetic pronunciations. As in A says a, a for apple and so on. She also has a toy bus that does the same (also second hand) and an electronic toy like a biscuit tray which has the letters of the alphabet. She used to systematically press the alphabet buttons over and over again, once to hear the sounds as in ABC, press it again and they tell the child how to pronounce it phonetically press it again and they say a for apple right through the alphabet. My granddaughter is autistic, she taught herself to read from the age of two! I was telling this to a relative who told me her grandson also autistic started to learn Russian from the age of 4 from singing songs in Russian! He is now multi lingual and studying languages and translation and is currently studying in Belgium. He also has synesthesia and see sounds in colour. My relative bought him an electronic drum kit with headphones and he taught himself to play. Some autistic children have special abilities!

Sounds like hyperlexia, it often co occurs with autism. Many children with hyperlexia can decode words but don’t develop comprehension skills at the same rate.

Trying to teach four year olds phonics with an expectation that they will be on the road to fluent reading by 5/6 is nuts.

Children in other parts of the world are all focusing on social and emotional development and skills like putting on their own jackets, mittens, hats, socks, and shoes, plus completely mastering the art of using the potty. They are emotionally and in most cases neurologically ready for learning phonics and other tackling other academic challenges at 6, and that element of school tends to go very smoothly at that age.

4 is too early for school.

Trying to teach four year olds phonics with an expectation that they will be on the road to fluent reading by 5/6 is nuts.

Why? Some children will be. Some children will be fluent readers at four or five. Should they be held back because other children aren't yet potty trained or can't put their coats on?

Yes the family are well aware of hyperlexia. My DGD can read but uses phrases from her books to communicate.

Well if you actually bothered to read my 1st post you would know that my DGD is autistic! Who just happens to read extensively Nobody taught her she taught herself! She reads everything, text on the television, posters, on vehicles, you name it. She communicates to the family by quoting phrases from books she has read. (so she does have understanding of what she has read). Her family are trying to potty train her but the nursery have said to wait until she has the words which does not help with the situation. She is starting to help with dressing herself and uses a fork and spoon but still prefers to use her fingers. According to the specialists she is about a year behind her peers emotionally!