Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

So offensive!

Some years ago I worked with Sure Start centres where we delivered classes to parents and their preschool children to support them in exactly these skills. Language skills, playing without screens, encouraging parents to help their children to learn skills they would need in the future. Brushing teeth, toilet training, just the skill of sitting with others and how to cope with meeting new children and new places.

The previous government cancelled Sure Start and I came across a report recently (though can’t find it at the moment) that identified the massive difference in outcomes in children who had been supported by a SureStart programme and those who hadn’t.

More recently I worked as an Admissions officer in a primary school. The number of parents who actually believe that it is the school’s responsibility to toilet training their NT children is ridiculous.
I would run a new intake meeting each June for the September intake. The head and SENDCO would underline that children need to be able to use the toilet, feed themselves and basically dress themselves (help with fasteners obviously). Some parents would be outraged when told that the school nurse would help them with these things.

There are also many more ND children arriving in Reception who do require support with such activities but if the teachers and TAs are helping the ones whose parents just can’t parent, it doesn’t work does it?

As a parent of a child who was born very premature I feel for you OP. I also had a second with a lifelong medical condition that caused some toilet issues when he was little so I know some children (and parents) need extra support, but that’s not what the prime minister was talking about.

That's really interesting to know that parents actually think the school is meant to toilet train their kids. That's a big problem.

My DS was the surestart generation and it didn't help us, but I think my DS's very mild ASD was hard to spot.

Local infant school 20% non verbal nappy wearing on intake that is a huge load on teaching staff. Local inner city secondary 25% SEND. Do we blame schools ? Ironically at parent evening parents do not always want significant improvement of statemented child confirmed in writing as it might affect their benefit package??

People won’t accept that this was and still is a massive part of the problem. That’s what we were told when we googled, when we ask the HV , when we looked on the NHS website , when we went to the GP. They’re not ready yet. Then suddenly it’s too late and they should’ve been ready two years ago and why did you wait you lazy , crappy parent?

I’m using the general we here, DD was potty trained at 2 and a half, the only thing that actually went well.

The new advice is now very clear , but not updated on the NHS , only on the ERIC website. Do not wait for the signs! Interestingly, the requests from parents have increased massively in the past few years. If parents are so shit and lazy…. Why are they asking for help and support?

What is your evidence for poor parenting like this? I would suggest there is something much more complicated going on here.
My youngest grandson is not completely school ready because he has delayed speech and no-one can tell us why. He has been brought up in a loving home with the attention of both parents who have done their utmost to ensure he has had a well balanced childhood and every opportunity to develop normally.
My second grandson still had toileting accidents in year 1. It was only when in desperation my daughter consulted the GP that we discovered he had a physical condition that was treatable. His parents had thought he was just "lazy" because that was the prevailing verdict of their friendship group.
Casting judgement on parents is simply not going to solve the problem faced by schools, nor is uneducated condemnation from a prime minister who probably knows nothing at all about day to day childcare.
We need a proper investigation into why this is happening so much more than it did in the past, and a well thought out policy for correcting it if it can be corrected.
There is always the possibility, of course, that this is nature's way of telling us that we are pushing our children too hard and that they need more time to mature. Perhaps some clever anthropologist would care to comment on this idea.

20 % non verbal? Dear God

You are aware, aren't you, that in many cultures eating with your fingers is the norm. Knives and forks are very "western"

What a great idea!

This is correct but in the UK the norm is to use cutlery and to remain seated at the table. Not sure what your point is.

You could equally make a comment on the lack of proper toilets in many developing countries so what’s the problem with children in this country not being able to use the toilet?!

I think the push from government to make sure both parents return to work shortly after they have a child (not to mention the financial need to return to work for the majority) really doesn't help children's development either.

Yes parents should be the ones taking responsibility to teach their children to use the toilet, dress, sit still, how to eat politely and use cutlery, follow directions etc, but when they are spending most of their week working and dealing with housework they don't have enough time to do this effectively. Certainly not to the same standards parents bringing up kids in the 90s and earlier when it was more common for women to work part-time or be a stay at home parent. Childcare settings help with this but won't be able to devote the same amount of time for every child.

Most parents are trying their best with the time they have but it just feels like another stick to be beaten with at times. Parent like you don't work but we want you to work as if you don't have children.

How many parents do they really think are at home with their kids not teaching them these things out of choice? The free childcare isn't really free when you take into consideration additional fees. It can still add up to spending hundreds each month even using a fully funded place. So it's just proof the system doesn't work if there are parents who still can't afford to use it.

They have actually brought in (or are in the process of bringing in) a new service to replace the sure start centres (that never should have been gotten rid of by the tories, due to their proven success) Best Start family hubs, It hasnt been very well reported though.

"Ironically at parent evening parents do not always want significant improvement of statemented child confirmed in writing as it might affect their benefit package??"

"Statemented"??

I don’t think it is working parents not doing this. We both work and ours were potty trained before two. We just took a couple of days holiday. Many others have said on here they work and their children are trained. At the private nursery we use, a large number of children age 2 and up are using the toilet cubicles - all have working parents. At our school pre school, all of the 28 children are toilet trained - age three and not one started in nappies. It’s an area with a lot of two working parent families.

I think it’s more complex than this. Some areas are reporting huge numbers not school ready. Children that don’t know what to do with a book, can’t use cutlery, won’t sit at a table to eat, and aren’t potty trained. I’m not sure what the answer is.

My point is that many people in this country eat with their fingers. If the whole family eats with their fingers it is unreasonable to expect a child of four to do otherwise. If the school requires them to use a knife and fork the school has to teach them.
Your analogy with toileting is spurious. British houses have British toilets.

Once a week my son is allowed to watch things on my phone while we eat (it's a long story). I noticed his table manners go completely out of the window when he does. It's the same for adults and even me too. Something about it means I'm staring at the phone and using my fingers to put food in my mouth. Thats completely different to say a South Asian family who sit round a table together and talk while eating in a mindful way but with their fingers. Or a Chinese family using chopsticks. In that case their children are still learning table manners from adults. Its just the table manners are different. Its hard because what might be a symptom of a wider problem in one family is a result of different customs in another. But a small child who learnt to eat with fingers or chopsticks with the rest of their family has already learnt the importance of sitting and eating with others and the concept of table manners. So I don't think it's as hard for them to learn different table manners. It's different to a child where just hasn't been taught.

And I think the second thing happens for all sorts of reasons - stressed parents, parents not realising their children can do more etc. it's not always the parents are stupid and lazy.

So it's hard to differentiate but there is a difference

@canyouseemyhousefromhere The big issue was the parents who needed the help most not attending. Chaotic people just don’t. People at work didn’t go. Often they could not afford the bus fare if coming in from a village - or no buses at all. It helped some people but we had family centres but many mums never followed any advice at all. Some parents are very difficult to help. We need pin point targeting of resources but no one likes ti say “it’s you - you are the crappy parent”.

And here we are in a western country.

And your point is?
While there is a lot about our culture that I would expect people who come here from other countries to adopt as a matter of course, eating with a knife and fork isn't one of them.

Well that's just daft. UK children go to school far too young anyway ...

@Mischance No they don’t. Many are perfectly ok and respond well to the EY curriculum. Plenty are ready for school and we’ve never had a kindergarten system. No one thought dc should not go to school at 4/5 years ago when hardly any dc went to nursery. In fact summer born dc were prevented from having the full 2 years of EY by starting after Easter just before they turned 5. They didn’t get much in YR by starting so late. A good EY curriculum will get dc off to a flying start but parents have a crucial role too. My dd and plenty of others are more than capable of thriving in our system.

My GD dad has her when he isn’t working and is working towards having her full time but unfortunately wasn’t in a Safe place to have her when she was left with me, and I believe that the other two are with their father now full time but I only know what social workers could tell me.

Many people in this country eat with their fingers
Statistics please?

And you would find it acceptable to be sat next to someone at a formal dinner eating with their hands ?

So are they school unready having missed out playgroup or nursery?