Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

I suspect this is part of the issue we had for my son.

We started potty training at 18 months when he started removing his own nappies. We just weren't cracking it.

He is autistic and speech delayed so I reached out for help from the HV team who scolded me for not waiting for signs of readiness.

We waited until 2, then tried again when he was starting to pull his own pants up, again we just couldn't crack it. We tried to go to routine rather than waiting for communication to develop, and he was completely disinterested in rewards or rather, he didn't associate the reward with the behaviour.

Then at 3 we were desperate. We'd had the last 2 weeks of the school holidays with semi-success, but then nursery insisted on a nappies for nursery, pants for home policy as he was still frequently having accidents as they were relying on him verbally communicating (which just wasn't happening as he was non-verbal), he regressed, had anxiety around potties and toilets and then started withholding his bowel movements.

By almost 4 the HV got back in touch and I said he just isn't showing enough signs of readiness, and I got scolded again for waiting for signs of readiness because that's just not how it's done now, we don't wait for signs of readiness, we create routine and structure.

She sent me on an ERIC webinar specifically for SEN kids.

I got told don't wait for signs of readiness, but don't start unless they're ready. Always change nappies in the bathroom to create an association, unless your child has bathroom anxiety. Never ever use nappies or pull ups, unless your child withholds bowel movements and then you always use nappies or pull ups. Always praise them for doing a good job, but never praise them because sometimes it draws attention to what they're doing and makes them panic.

My head was spinning by the end of it.

I even remember at 7-8 months old I asked about elimination communication, and was laughed at for being a "crunchy mum". But I wish I'd bloody done it.

DS is almost 7 and they still won't refer to the continence team.

I’m sorry you had to go through all of that and still struggling without any real support.

Those who know, know , and understand. Those who don’t, don’t want to hear it. That applies to the general public and , sadly , HCPs.

We had similar with DD’s speech delay. Concerns ignored. Wait and see. “If she understood, she’d be speaking” - why the fuck aren’t you concerned she has no speech AND no understanding then? Are you still concerned? Yes!! Wait 6 more months. I couldn’t even get a referral to see a SALT until she was 4 and a half and I started pointing it out since she was 2. Saw the SALT , she noticed some concerns/issues with sounds told me to wait and see if her y1 teacher will raise any concerns and give me a new referral. We were extremely lucky she eventually caught up (I put a lot of work in at home with her).

But people on here are convinced 4 yos will have a bunch of professionals involved, a list of diagnosis and extended external input as “proof” you’re not just a crappy parent or that your child actually has an issue. As if!

I find it terribly sad children aren’t potty trained by school age. I took a week off work and we had cracked it at 2.5 years old (that’s because the advice at the time was not to start before 2.5 - I see it’s now changed - which is fascinating). Stopped wearing nappies to bed two months later.
Wearing nappies means a child will struggle to join any extra curricular clubs -
I couldn’t sign mine to ballet until potty trained and swimming is tricky.

Other than SEND issues there is no reason a child should be in nappies. I also heard from governors that children are struggling with hand dexterity. A number of young children haven’t had the opportunity with sand and water play, real colouring in (not an iPad).

Sure Start Centres were great but Mother and Toddler groups still exist. I wonder if they still attract families.

I went to to a large IKEA store a few weeks ago. Has a lovely large and cheap cafe, I was amazed at how many mums with infants were there. What a lovely space for them! But when I sat down with a coffee, I was so sad at how the mums were glued to their phones just shoving pastries in the general direction of their toddlers and then getting exasperated that the kid shredded the dough and made a mess. Poor baby was babbling pointing at stiff. Mum was so busy on her phone she was trying to eat and cut up a fry up with her left hand. No eye contact between the two. What a shame. I think there will be massive fallout with adults and kids having too much screen time. Babies learn from eye contact and interaction. Mummys need to focus on their babies x

Well it is discrimination isn't it. There is no way my three year old would have been toilet trained (autistic) in time. If he isn't toilet trained due to being autistic and then not allowed to attend because he is in pull ups I call that discrimination.

I agree. DS was not considered school ready. But DS was autistic and I was left to manage this with no support and on a massive waiting list with nasty comments from the staff alluding to their theory that I was a crap parent. Again with No 2, there were suggestions of shit parenting. No 2 didn’t have autism & high needs. No 2 just had a shit parent.

Contrary to some of the perceptions on this group, there are many people working in early years who have no idea how to recognise additional needs. And when people do not know how to deal with additional needs in a professional context, they lash out & blame the mothers.

My mother was a teacher in the 60s and I remember her telling me she chose to teach older primary, not early years because she didn’t want to do the potty training. So this isn’t a new issue.

Maybe with regards to reading and writing but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be in some form of educational setting learning key skills until 7, and should have the basics like toilet training, speaking, social interactions and eating with cutlery at 4 . That’s the key difference which is stopping schools from focussing on these additional skills when they get to reception compared with 5 years ago.

There's too many impracticalities to suddenly changing it to 7, Finland will have never had a benefit culture that encouraged sitting at home and mass breeding,.those unfit parents exist now and delaying starting school until 7 just means another 3 years of developmental damage being done. They need to be away from the parents that aren't teaching them basic things or interacting with them as soon as possible.

Also you are.talking about working parents having three extra years of very expensive childcare to fork out for so the birth rates will drop more.

Living elsewhere so mum can get maximum benefits and a free council house!

People sat on benefits and mass bred, and once these people are in a situation where they have 4 kids under the age of 6 they just leave them to it because it's too much hassle and having all those young and dependant kids to get through basic milestones. Often dad lives elsewhere to avoid impacting mums benefits!

Yes it's the cohorts of children where parents just haven't bothered because as soon as things get hard they gave up. My son really struggled with potty training for number 2s. It took 6 months of us trying different strategies for him to get over his fear of pooing on potty or toilet compared to nappy. We got there eventually. Another friend of mine is having the same issue with her current 3 year old. It would be so much easier for us as parents to have just said fine don't poo in the toilet, wear a nappy and left it. But we knew we had to keep trying and supporting him. It's these situations that people are referring too where unfortunately some parents do not try hard enough or don't know what is required before they start school. Schools are struggling when more children have SEND and lots of children are not school 'ready' when they should be as no other needs. If the children were actually school ready then teachers would have more time to help children with SEND and wouldn't be feeling this overwhelmed. So if your a parent or a child with SEND please don't feel these are aimed for you. It's not. In fact it's taken supporting away from your child because there are some parents who don't think it's their responsibility to parent their own child.

I’m sick and tired of hearing about how Reception teachers with 1 TA have a cohort of 30 where at least 5 have severe complex SEND, as in they’re non verbal, in nappies and functioning at a toddler level.

Their parents don’t want them there and send them to try and make sure they will eventually get the specialist placement they need, mainstream school can’t meet their needs in anyway at all and they take up an enormous proportion of the time available to the teacher and TA.

There has always been a small cohort of NT children who are not ‘school ready’ because of emerging or known minor needs or neglectful parenting but reception was always a time to smooth out the issues, put in place support for parents who’d fallen through the net etc so all would be ready for work in more formal Year 1

The problem now is that those children’s needs are overshadowed by the profoundly high SEN needs in the class and this is overwhelming teachers.

Sort out the crisis in SEN education and stop warehousing high need children for their first couple of years to save money and you’ll sort out the school readiness issue.

The 2 children benefit cap started in 2017, alongside many other benefit cuts and a scarcity of council housing. So how come things are getting worse? 15 years ago what you say might’ve applied BUT apparently this wasn’t a problem then. So how does that work out?

Only parents on benefits are lazy?

Oh goody a benefits bashing thread.

You tell me why we still see these large families, women moaning that their 6 young kids are living in a mouldy flat or how they need a 4 bed home from the council because they've had 6 kids whilst living in a one bed flat! All these absent dads! It's still happening so there are still loopholes being exploited! Maybe thats why there's an 8 to 10 year waiting list for things like ADHD assessment because people are looking for reasons not to work, if you keep popping kids out and claiming they are all ND I guess you don't get asked to find work and get benefits for it. I would love to know what has to be done to stop this benefit culture.

I think this is absolutely right.

My DS is highly intelligent but very mildly ASD. He started school not school ready, and I finally got an EHCP in year 9 because he had a breakdown after years of misery.

We had years of the NHS telling us the school were responsible for child health and the school telling us there was no budget.

I also had significant problems because of crippling exhaustion and nobody listened.

The only thing the school consistently do is demonise anyone who does not get 100% attendance, which only makes everything worse.

The system is terribly terribly broken and I think there is a health crises going on around child development, which no one will acknowledge because nobody wants to pay for it.

Yes I absolutely agree with this. The SEN crisis is real and people need to start making eye contact with it rather than demonising parents.

I totally get this. I am in the same boat. DS became toilet trained abruptly at age 13 (years) when I withdrew him from school.

Did I say that? But are you honestly be that person that denies the obvious? It's a huge part of the problem! What alternative version do you believe in? You don't solve anything by pussyfooting around the issue! If you want to see just one example, watch Billy Moore on YouTube and watch his Hull video, he talks to a mother of 8, 35 years old and a mother of 8! Abs she was complaining of how feral they all are and how she can't cope with them! That's the issue I'm talking about! You know I didn't say it was only benefits people but anyone of sense can see where this issue is largely coming from.

"People sat on benefits and mass bred, and once these people are in a situation where they have 4 kids under the age of 6 they just leave them to it because it's too much hassle and having all those young and dependant kids to get through basic milestones. "

Having 4 kids under 6 is not new though. It was common place not so long ago.

Actually my mum had 4 under 6 at one point and we were all toilet trained at the usual time. Having to use terry nappies would have been a factor in the past.

It was a different mentality the big families of generations ago! Surely you know that?

I'm not sure if you're aware, but working class children are allowed to go to school. And some of them even have the ability to learn! Who knew? Not you, huh?