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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

615 replies

Kirova · 28/09/2025 14:08

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Buzyizzy217 · 29/09/2025 19:44

It’s absolutely true. Children are starting full time school in nappies, which the teachers are expected to change, can’t use knife and fork, no social skills, can’t sit still for 5 minutes. It’s utterly disgusting. These parents have done nothing except give birth. And I’m not talking about any SEN children.

Horserider5678 · 29/09/2025 19:45

Kirova · 28/09/2025 14:08

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

Actually legally your daughter or any child doesn’t have to start school until her 5th birthday! So what you are quoting is incorrect!

InMyShowgirlEra · 29/09/2025 19:49

Espressosummer · 29/09/2025 18:48

Not on the toileting issue. A quick google suggests Scandinavians typically potty train by age 3-3.5 which is long before children start school in the UK. They may do less formal education between 4 and 6 but they are not neglecting to teach their children basic life skills.

3 seems really late to potty train to me. Scandinavians do have the excuse of -20C temperatures and 6 months of darkness. Not like you can let them run around the garden without bottoms on in a Finnish winter.

Apparently the age of average potty training has gone from 18 months to 3.5 years in the UK since the extremely successful marketing campaign by Pampers encouraged parents to wait for "readiness".

Buttons0522 · 29/09/2025 19:53

If you’re a parent who cares about your child’s development and has tried to help them to meet milestones then nobody is going to judge you and you are not the problem. If you’re a parent who has stuck them in a buggy with an iPad whilst you’re on your phone with your AirPods in rather than talking to them about the world, teaching them and developing their language skills, then you are the problem and yes we are judging you.

AnneLovesGilbert · 29/09/2025 19:56

The two year check up still happens, we had one this year for my youngest. There are also loads of free or very low cost council run groups on prepping for a baby, weaning, play groups, SEND playgroups, SEND support groups, dad’s groups, early talk groups. They’re not hugely well advertised but they still sell out so they’re in use and obviously quite popular. If you know about them - which you will if your HV tells you about them - and choose to go to them there’s actually a lot of support there.

MuDew · 29/09/2025 19:58

Kirova · 28/09/2025 14:08

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

By "school ready", it is meant at expected developmental milestones. These aren't arbitrarily set by government. They are agreed developmental milestones it is expected Westernised children meet at broadly - and that's a key word - the same point.

The issues nursery, reception, primary are finding, and this is what's meant by "school ready", not high school (all different matter), is children are not demonstrating decades long researched and understood milestones when entering these educational processes.

There are nursery children who cannot demonstrate the ability to formulate basic words through speech. There are reception children who are in nappies and not toilet trained. There are children who have never interacted with other children or other adults before and don't know how to appropriately regulated for their neurodevelopmental age. I.E. they're presenting as regressiv

This is down to family, parents, home life. For instance, it has been found that with the advent of the pushchair that is now so prolific and favoured over the traditional pram, children's speech development has suffered, as too has their ability to pick up on social cues, and also form secure attachments to their primary care givers. The reason? Partly because a pushchair faces outwards,and children's eye sight isnt honed like adults and so they are flooded with sights, sounds etc... but no one to focus on. In a traditional pram they would face up and look towards their primary care giver snd focus on their sound, their words, their lip movements, and this is a very early stage of childhood development that teaches the infant speech, speech recognition, emotional identification through speech (tone, meaning), and helps with attachme

Some children, way beyond the age they should be in a pram or pushchair are still in them bc the parent finds it easier than having to have a toddler or junior walk around with them where they want to go, when they want to

I frequently see families with young children out very late at night, and by young I mean pre-school. Children's brains are not developed to adapt to that. They actually should be sleeping. They're growing rapidly and they need more sleep than adults to accommodate for that gro

It seems some parents just want to be out doing what they want to

However, it's not all beat a parent. Our economic model if neoliberalism demands that for it to be propt up with "growth, growth, growth", both creative givers in a 2 parents household absolutely have to work as the economy succeeds or fails on productivity - it's not immediately economically productive to have 1 care giver stay home and raise childre , for example.

And this is how we measure GDP - everyone out working. We don't have to measure it that way, btw. We could measure it by life fulfilment, happiness, wellness, family life, care in raising our children to be well balanced individuals.

How many here are doing their best, but are so ridiculously busy with other things, like work, house work, other responsibilities, that they've negated to take the road less travelled with their offspring at times, and instead popped them in front of a screen to placate or dismissed them because we're busy.

And this is what Starner is getting at - it is becoming commonplace that children starting nursery,reception, primary etc...are just not capable with basics and he's asking why? The answer is neoliberal economies, poor guidance, information and support from health professionals, a breakdown in the social contract, modern technology (so many parents on their screens as their little ones come out of nursery or other school - zero interaction), and some unfortunately just also not giving a you know what.

I suggest if Starmer is sick of it he radically change our systems, but that would require some socialist policy and all he's got, along with Reeves, is same old,same old neo-liberalist policies- the doyne of Thatcher and Regan.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 20:00

InMyShowgirlEra · 29/09/2025 19:49

3 seems really late to potty train to me. Scandinavians do have the excuse of -20C temperatures and 6 months of darkness. Not like you can let them run around the garden without bottoms on in a Finnish winter.

Apparently the age of average potty training has gone from 18 months to 3.5 years in the UK since the extremely successful marketing campaign by Pampers encouraged parents to wait for "readiness".

Fully embraced by NHS advice and healthcare professionals.Wait until they’re ready, wait for the signs (this changed in recent years , but it was right there ) etc. The age also changed, it used to be 18 months to 3 years, now changed to 2.In some areas , you can’t even see an incontinence service if your child is under 5(or sometimes older).

FlyMeSomewhere · 29/09/2025 20:01

JSMill · 28/09/2025 14:42

I work in infants and we have all noticed a marked increase in the number of children who come to school without basic school ready skills. The biggest difference I see is at lunch. So many children don’t seem able to sit at a table and eat. Some try to wander around the lunch hall, many can’t use forks and knives properly and some insist on eating with their fingers. It’s bloody hard work dealing with trying to erase those bad habits on top of the normal lunchtime supervision.
Another trend is the number of dcs who clearly never read at home. Some dcs don’t even know how to hold a book. When you talk to them, you find they are obsessed with their tablets, YouTube etc. What hope has the school got in making these children enthusiastic readers when this is the attitude at home about books?

I have always wondered about this! When you're in restaurants and pubs now, kids are taught to sit watching a cartoon and occasionally cram done food in their mouth by hand. So many kids seem to waste food because the parents don't make them focus and sit and eat with a knife and fork.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 20:03

Using a potty is a new skill for your child to learn. It's best to take it slowly and go at your child's pace. Being patient with them will help them get it right, even if you sometimes feel frustrated.
Children are able to control their bladder and bowels when they're physically ready and when they want to be dry and clean. Every child is different, so it's best not to compare your child with others.
Bear in mind that most children can control their bowels before their bladder.

  • by age 1, most babies have stopped doing poos at night
  • by age 2, some children will be dry during the day, but this is still quite early
  • by age 3, 9 out of 10 children are dry most days – even then, all children have the odd accident, especially when they're excited, upset or absorbed in something else
  • by age 4, most children are reliably dry during the day

When to start potty trainingRemember, you cannot force your child to use a potty. If they're not ready, you will not be able to make them use it. In time, they will want to use one – most children will not want to go to school in nappies any more than you would want them to.

You can try to work out when your child is ready. There are a number of signs that your child is starting to develop bladder control:

  • they know when they've got a wet or dirty nappy
  • they get to know when they're peeing and may tell you they're doing it
  • the gap between wetting is at least an hour (if it's less, potty training may fail, and at the very least will be extremely hard work for you)
  • they show they need to pee by fidgeting or going somewhere quiet or hidden
  • they know when they need to pee and may say so in advance
Potty training is usually fastest if your child is at the last stage before you start the training. If you start earlier, be prepared for a lot of accidents as your child learns.
InMyShowgirlEra · 29/09/2025 20:03

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 20:00

Fully embraced by NHS advice and healthcare professionals.Wait until they’re ready, wait for the signs (this changed in recent years , but it was right there ) etc. The age also changed, it used to be 18 months to 3 years, now changed to 2.In some areas , you can’t even see an incontinence service if your child is under 5(or sometimes older).

It's quite scary how it was just accepted and promoted by everyone without a shred of evidence. And now we blame parents because they waited for their 4 yo to spontaneously decide they wanted to be potty trained.

thereneverwasacloudyday · 29/09/2025 20:06

The number of children in this year's reception classes and our year 1 classes till in nappies is shocking. And the behaviour, just wow, so awful. Parenting is non existent in too many families around here. So many staff members have had enough and are actively looking into careers elsewhere at this point. So depressing.

So yes, yabu.

WorkItUpYourBangle · 29/09/2025 20:08

You seem to still be under the impression that you're governed by people that give a fuck about you.

FlyMeSomewhere · 29/09/2025 20:10

I think benefit reforms might help change things, I think a lot of problems stem from people that pop out a lot of kids and people on benefits became notorious for having large families and it's ok having a kid every other year or so with a dad that doesn't seem to live at home but that's a mother with a lot of young kids that aren't getting the potty training and teeth brushing help and taught to eat properly etc because the mother can't cope with having to do that for one child after another and trying to do that with other kids that aren't that much older needing attention.

ButFirstCovfefe · 29/09/2025 20:10

Bambamhoohoo · 28/09/2025 14:53

All anyone mentions with this is nappies. I’d love to know how many children start reception in nappies all day 🤨

There are three in my four years olds class who are fully in nappies. I don’t know the reasons, nor should I.

My daughter is for all intents and purposes “school ready” other than one thing.

She has a perfect pencil grip, can dress and undress herself without help, use the toilet and wipe herself, can feed herself with a knife and fork, knows basic phonics and maths, can concentrate and listen to instructions, loves books, knows how to share, is empathetic to others emotions, and is bright and eager to learn…BUT…she’s had an accident almost every day in the three weeks since she’s started school.

We potty trained her but she’s always had issues with accidents. Nursery and us worked together to help but she has a seriously hard time and gets distracted. Even with us reminding her. She has three older brothers and whilst my autistic son was very late, even he never had an accident once trained (and was before starting school).
I’m pulling my hair out and just don’t know what to do.

School say accidents are normal at this stage and they’re not concerned. She cleans/changes herself but does need a staff member “with” her. I’m terrified they think we’ve not tried but I promise we have tried everything and worked hard with nursery. When she’s focussed she’d never have an accident but the moment she’s distracted it’s like she forgets everything.

(I realise I’ve gone off on a tangent now. If anyone has any ideas please please help)

BertieBotts · 29/09/2025 20:19

@ButFirstCovfefe could you try and encourage her to go "just to try" at a predictable trigger e.g. every time they go outside for playtime or lunch? If it's happening at a certain time in the routine she'll probably get into the habit of it and it might be that the teacher or class TA can help remind her while she's forming the habit.

If she goes for a try at least once every couple of hours then she is much less likely to have accidents.

It would also have the advantage that it ought to trigger her to wash her hands before eating, which is good advice anyway.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 20:24

InMyShowgirlEra · 29/09/2025 20:03

It's quite scary how it was just accepted and promoted by everyone without a shred of evidence. And now we blame parents because they waited for their 4 yo to spontaneously decide they wanted to be potty trained.

Yup. ERIC, the incontinence charity changed their advice too (they’ve teamed up with kindred after their school readiness reports started coming out)and are quite firm about it.

Shouldn't we wait for 'signs of readiness'?No! Many children and particularly those with additional needs, will never give any signs that they are ready to potty or toilet train.
Very few children wake up one morning and announce they want to stop wearing a nappy! It's a bit like expecting a child to be able to run before they've had a chance to crawl.
You don't need to delay potty training and wait for signs of readiness. Prepare your child by teaching them the skills they need.
What is the best age for potty training?Most children are ready to master potty independence and lead in many parts of the process from around 18 months. The majority of children will be capable of doing most things including wiping by themselves when they start school.
Research shows it is better for your child’s bladder and bowel health to stop using nappies between 18 and 30 months.
The longer you leave it, the harder it can be for your child to learn this new skill and accept not having a nappy on anymore.

Completely different tone and tune.

MidnightPatrol · 29/09/2025 20:36

I’m surprised that a child without SEN would be comfortable still using a nappy at school, realising that their peers did not…!

Mapletree1985 · 29/09/2025 20:50

If children are not school ready, why are they going to school? Maybe they should go when they're ready to benefit from it, and not because they're hit some arbitrary birthday milestone.

Twinkeeyes · 29/09/2025 20:55

Why do people have children if they don’t want to look after them Children rely on their
parents and follow by example It’s a never ending cycle

AlphaApple · 29/09/2025 20:59

"School ready" is a bit of a distraction. Even if kids weren't obliged to start school at 4 or 5, it's still part of basic parenting that by that age you will have taught your kids to follow instructions, behave safely around other children, be able to dress and feed themselves etc. Disabilities and special needs aside, there is no earthly reason why a child should not be able to do those things.

LilySLE · 29/09/2025 21:18

Bambamhoohoo · 28/09/2025 14:53

All anyone mentions with this is nappies. I’d love to know how many children start reception in nappies all day 🤨

I’m a primary school governor. I believe we have 5 (out of 60) this year. These are children with no diagnosed medical issues underlying it.
A few years back this would have been unheard of. Teachers simply cannot potty train on top of all their many other responsibilities, but parents are expecting them to.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 21:43

LilySLE · 29/09/2025 21:18

I’m a primary school governor. I believe we have 5 (out of 60) this year. These are children with no diagnosed medical issues underlying it.
A few years back this would have been unheard of. Teachers simply cannot potty train on top of all their many other responsibilities, but parents are expecting them to.

If parents were expecting them to they’d send their children in pants, not nappies.

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 29/09/2025 21:47

usedtobeaylis · 28/09/2025 15:05

I appreciate the point about nappies but 'the some who can already read' shouldn't be the bar by which all children are judged.

One of the general issues though is that the appropriate developmental range gets blurred and pushed back by those who do down what we can expect of children.

Sure, most won't be able to read. But by taking "able to read" off the table, for a lot of parents that means not even trying to lay the foundations.

It doesn't matter if children can't read when they start school. It does matter if no one has taken the steps to get them started.

(Source: I managed the development of a national early years assessment that was extensively trialled with thousands of children.)

See also potty training. I've just trained my son at under 2. All his little friends are learning. Yet on MN you constantly see posts about two being too little, and if you wait until they are magically "ready" it will take a couple of days and one pack of buttons. Sounds comforting and easy, right? The idea that you can skip the effort by waiting. (I think a good half of them are SM schills from Pampers). But there are kids who'll be worse if you wait, and most kids will take a few weeks to nail it regardless.

Lowering the bar is an issue because it drags down kids who can't afford to be dragged down by low expectations.

celticprincess · 29/09/2025 21:55

Saeurcat · 28/09/2025 14:15

I get your point because some children won’t be ready with even the best parenting.
But there are increasingly children who are Autumn-Spring born with no additional need that are coming into schools unable to do the basics such as go to toilet.
School staff are very good at spotting children with potential additional need so those children won’t be factored into statements like these but neurotypical children that don’t have basic skills are causing a huge huge strain on schools - meaning those children that have had basic parenting and can toilet, sit for a v. short period of time or listen are pretty much left to their own devices playing whilst staff are having to change nappies etc for others.

Not all school staff are able to spot potential additional needs. My August born started pre school at 3 and was expected to be toilet trained. We had tried everything on earth. It wasn’t until she was 7 years old that she was eventually referred for her toilet issues and wasn’t until she was 10 and almost 11 that she was actually diagnosed as being autistic. The pushing of the toilet early on really worked against her actually gave her a phobia of using toilets in schools. But I was told it was by bad parenting back in early primary school. In sixth form now and basically all the various mental health services have failed in helping us out with this and it’s part of her demand avoidance profile.

And I’ll also add that my second child was toilet trained before 2. Pretty much no training actually required. But definitely not lazy parenting on our part.

GagMeWithASpoon · 29/09/2025 21:57

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis · 29/09/2025 21:47

One of the general issues though is that the appropriate developmental range gets blurred and pushed back by those who do down what we can expect of children.

Sure, most won't be able to read. But by taking "able to read" off the table, for a lot of parents that means not even trying to lay the foundations.

It doesn't matter if children can't read when they start school. It does matter if no one has taken the steps to get them started.

(Source: I managed the development of a national early years assessment that was extensively trialled with thousands of children.)

See also potty training. I've just trained my son at under 2. All his little friends are learning. Yet on MN you constantly see posts about two being too little, and if you wait until they are magically "ready" it will take a couple of days and one pack of buttons. Sounds comforting and easy, right? The idea that you can skip the effort by waiting. (I think a good half of them are SM schills from Pampers). But there are kids who'll be worse if you wait, and most kids will take a few weeks to nail it regardless.

Lowering the bar is an issue because it drags down kids who can't afford to be dragged down by low expectations.

Can you really blame parents when this is the NHS advice? And this is after being updated!!

Using a potty is a new skill for your child to learn. It's best to take it slowly and go at your child's pace. Being patient with them will help them get it right, even if you sometimes feel frustrated.
Children are able to control their bladder and bowels when they're physically ready and when they want to be dry and clean. Every child is different, so it's best not to compare your child with others.
Bear in mind that most children can control their bowels before their bladder.

by age 1, most babies have stopped doing poos at night
by age 2, some children will be dry during the day, but this is still quite early
by age 3, 9 out of 10 children are dry most days – even then, all children have the odd accident, especially when they're excited, upset or absorbed in something else
by age 4, most children are reliably dry during the day

When to start potty trainingRemember, you cannot force your child to use a potty. If they're not ready, you will not be able to make them use it. In time, they will want to use one – most children will not want to go to school in nappies any more than you would want them to.
You can try to work out when your child is ready. There are a number of signs that your child is starting to develop bladder control:

they know when they've got a wet or dirty nappy
they get to know when they're peeing and may tell you they're doing it
the gap between wetting is at least an hour (if it's less, potty training may fail, and at the very least will be extremely hard work for you)
they show they need to pee by fidgeting or going somewhere quiet or hidden
they know when they need to pee and may say so in advance

Potty training is usually fastest if your child is at the last stage before you start the training. If you start earlier, be prepared for a lot of accidents as your child learns.

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