Keir Starmer "sick and tired" of hearing about children who aren't school-ready

[Kirova]

I get the point he's trying to make, of course, but it seems like a stick to beat parents with (and particularly mothers, of course). There's no sense in saying you want all children to be in the same place when they start school. Apart from anything else, some are nearly a year younger than others in their cohort, so clearly they are not going to be in the same place.

My youngest daughter was born premature, has a significant hearing impairment and various other difficulties. She will soon be two, and while she's doing brilliantly, I doubt she'll be "school-ready" by the government's current definition when she is four.

Not sure what my point is exactly, it just seems like another absurd over-simplification on the theme of failing our children, state of the country, etc.

I will add I was also on a Surestart steering group as a volunteer and think it is a big loss we no longer have them.

my understanding is attachment disorder is uncommon and doesn’t present without (serious) neglect. It’s rare for a baby boy to form an attachment with their mother/ main caregiver.

not the same as attachment theory, which is widely debunked as taking serious neglect and applying it to children with healthy attachments who have been left to cry at night.

This is what he said:
"We said that we would roll out childcare. This is childcare from 9 months to 4 years - for parents and carers that's thousands of pounds saved. For children, it's a game-changer. I'm sick and tired of stories about 4 year olds arriving in Reception - some reading quite well, others virtually in nappies. So, we're going to change that and make sure every single child gets to the starting line in education in an equal position."
Hardly controversial is it?

I’m still working with my 6yo twins on the cutlery position, this is not such an easy skill for even 6yo let alone 3-4yo. (With an added complication that some meals you eat with a fork only, in the dominant hand, upturned). Dressing independently is not an easy skill either. I don’t think in reality teachers expect a lot as far as cutlery and independent dressing are concerned.

I come from a european country where school starts at 6/7. 3 of my cousins are teachers there. They say (and i have no reason to not believe them) that they know in week 1 who will go to the grammar school equivalent (and consequently to university), who will go to “middle school” (pathway to degree apprenticeship), snd who will go to basic secondary (pathway to minimum wage or benefits).
The kids from educated backgrounds come in able to (or at least ready to learn quickly to) read, write and do maths.
Then there are kids who are competent in most things every day life, and have a basic understanding of books, maths etc.
And then there are the ones who have never read a book with a parent, haven’t ever drawn a picture etc.
At age 7, it is too late to catch up for most. Selection for grammar school is about 3 years later. Some manage, but without support from home it is virtually impossible.
Nurseries are cheap (really cheap - its not a money thing), but a lot of parents can’t be asked.

Being called middle class isn't a compliment? What is it then? Apart from a statement of fact...

I always wondered if starting school early had to fo with the peculiarities of the English language. Quite a few of other languages are - is the term phonetic? - they are easier to read, you read what you see, there are hardly any “special friends”. The payoff is harder grammar, but it is more appropriate to be taught later in life. So children can learn to read faster, as soon as they learn the alphabet really, and don’t need as much help learning to read as children learning English. Therefore, they don’t need to start school quite as early. Obviously later on in life, compared to English children with the relatively simple grammar, they really need to sweat learning cases, inclinations, genders and so on.

Why would it be a compliment? 😂 because you think it’s desirable!!!??

It shows that you're being a good parent and at least working with your children and showing them these things. Teachers are there to help too, to encourage and to give a little helping hand. It's hard to believe, but it does happen, that children aren't shown how to use cutlery at home. I've had a 7-8 year old scream and growl at me because I wouldn't dress her. All as I asked was for her to have a go and I'd help if she got stuck. She was angry I wouldn't dress her. Mom won't work with us on behaviour or address any of our concerns which would lead to the child getting support, she just repeats 'She's fine at home.'

This in spades!!!

Are you actually for real? This has got to be a wind up, surely?

I agree with him. Obviously children who genuinely havr additional needs are different.

But sometimes I wonder about children who present as ND and whether it is ND or jist lazy parenting? Or perhaps, more likely, relatively manageable ND that is hugely exacerbated by poor parenting.

There's a child in our wider family. We all think he most likely had adhd. But the school are pushing for him to be assessed for ASD too. Dh and I used to wonder this too but as we have watched this child and his parents , we are increasingly convinced that the social/relationship elements are because his probable ADHD impacts things and then his parents make it worse because they have no skills to help him.

IMO it’s very largely down to disposable nappies. When people (women!) had to wash and dry terry nappies there was a much greater incentive to potty-train.

Especially when not all that long ago most people didn’t have automatic washing machines, let alone tumble driers.

WYou never heard anyone saying that a NT child still ‘wasn’t ready’ at over 3, but it’s not at all uncommon to hear this now.

It can be both...
Sometimes, not always but sometimes, the parents themselves can have undiagnosed SEN themselves. There's often a genetic component and sometimes nature and nurture can mix together. Which can be a good thing if the parent has an understanding of their condition that also helps them empathise with and help their child. But can also complicate matters if, for example, the parent has an aversion to school/education because they felt stupid for not being able to spell. And don't read to their child because they struggle with reading and they associate it with humiliation. So then the child has a double whammy of dyslexia and not being used to books/the concept of reading before school.

And ADHDcan go with poor executive function and ASD with often rigid thinking in adults. Which itself can, sometimes, make it harder for them to get the skills to help their child.
It's not to say the parents are a lost cause/inherently bad. But holistic support can be more useful in those circumstances..and it doesn't need to cost the earth.

Yes I agree attachment disorder is extremely rare.

But I’m wondering if we are seeing attachment difficulties through increased use of screens.

and if attachment difficulties may present with a cross over of ND?

Im just musing but if a child has spent their time in a pushchair with a screen rather than interacting with the world it will have had an affect in development.

I wonder if it has similar effects to developmental trauma?

I work across a school nursery and in Reception. We have an intake of 60 in Reception (2 classes) and 1 has started in pull ups. We have 1 in nursery in pull-ups but it is clear he has significant SEN. The one in Reception is NT as far as we are aware.

However we do have a couple of accidents (both poo and wee) each day from a couple of the kids but most children are fully trained by the time they join us. Obviously that’s just my experience but it doesn’t seem as widespread as reported.

when I started school in 1960.... most mothers of young children were SAHP's, and there was no screen time or even daytime tv (apart from the lunchtime news) so I guess they had the time to teach us these skills.

I get a bit miffed at the assumption that SAH mothers in the past had so much more time.

I started school in 1959. My mother was a SAHP. But we had no central heating, so she had coal fires to clear out every day, and a solid fuel boiler to keep going. No automatic washing machines, so washing took up a large chunk of one day a week. No modern fabrics, so nearly everything needed ironing, and ironing was much harder work. No freezers (and some people didn't even have fridges), so you needed to shop most days, and supermarkets were in their infancy, so it took longer. No car, so you walked or took the bus. No microwaves and limited convenience foods, so meal preparation and cooking took longer (and it wasn't that long since rationing had ended, so there was was a whole generation of young mothers who had never really had the opportunity to learn to cook with a variety of ingredients.)

And since there was no daytime tv, we had to learn to entertain ourselves while mum was doing washing, housework or cooking. We did have plenty of books, drawing and colouring materials etc. She was available to listen and talk to us, but couldn't drop everything to play.

(I can remember exactly when I learned to tie my shoelaces. I was 4 yr 9m, staying with my aunt while my mother was in hospital having my younger sibling. My boy cousin, 2 yrs older, was rather condescending about the fact that I couldn't quite yet manage it. I wasn't having that, so when he showed me, I made sure to get it right.)

There were also a lot more special schools.

I don’t see how it could. Been given an iPad instead of interacted with doesn’t replicate the kind of trauma experienced for attachment disorder to be present

Source for that?

But I’m not talking about a disorder.

As I’ve said it’s difficulties amusing about.

Same as a child with a speech and language disorder is different to a child with speech and language difficulties.

Difficulties are generally delays which can be overcome or something which can be overcome.

Disorders (I hate that word!) are disabilities or permanent and usually medical or genetic in nature as well.

If a child hasn’t had a childhood of parental interaction I’m wondering if that’s what causes them difficulties in responding to instruction by an adult at school and a lot of children being not ready .

Similar experience here. Last year , no children in nappies. This year one, as he’s completely non verbal , and it’s more for peace of mind .

The surveys that are always referenced don’t actually mention nappies when they are talking about not being toilet trained. Just frequent mishaps with toileting .

But attachment “difficulties” isn’t a real thing? That’s my point, it’s a fair ponder but I don’t think it relates to a real attachment issue. I think that’s just surmising “oh they’re being ignored that must lead to something”- listen I was left alone all the time when I was growing up pottering around whilst my mum looked after siblings, entertained friends or napped on the sofa 😂 I don’t remember her playing with me or indeed doing any activities with me. It’s just the modern equivalent

If we’re being rational and pragmatic I doubt he would have been thinking of children with significant developmental issues such as your DD, surely you can see that.