To wonder why we can’t have a points based entry system like Australia?

[Backonland]

Why can’t we be like Australia and only allow people in who will contribute to society, either by bringing wealth with them or a qualification or skill that we need in the country.

Im not being goady, I genuinely do not understand why we can’t adopt the same approach? Surely that would be the sensible way forward and appease most people?

We do.
But I think what your post proves is that we need people to be better informed about this.

Isn't the linked jobs list more important?

So here's just one example under "skilled Visa". Hopefully someone can tell me if I've interpreted this correctly. But you could apply for this Visa and open up a betting shop (for example). I think a lot of this is about whether you want the UK to be an overcrowded hub for business. Personally, I was a lot happier when it wasn't. And I would argue that quality of life was a lot higher when it wasn't.

I fully appreciate this is a democratic decision and some people absolutely love this, what we have now - it's the whole "somewheres" versus "anywheres" a thing again, as per David Goodhart. I'm definitely a "somewhere". I've left London and now I'm just scared that the new place is gonna turn into anywhere.

I think when people talk about a points based system, they are thinking of jobs in essential occupations. I'm not sure if it's under this list, but I've also seen hairdresser, arts therapy, social media manager.

I myself have a contact who was on a specific work Visa from America. She decided she didn't want to do the job anymore. And she's decided to actually pack in that line of work so she's going to be applying for marketing manager roles.

She managed to get her Visa amended. I don't understand how. There are loads of out of work marketing people here. She originally came in on a specific job role with a specific skill, being the link between the American branch of the organisation in the London one.

So her living here should've been linked up to the job.

Anyway, here's the list, I did have another one which you could view in alphabetical order and it was hard to find something that wasn't on it!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-eligible-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-eligible-occupations-and-codes

Australia has the advantage of being miles from anywhere it’s a little harder to turn up on a boat

The difference is not the points system, it's that they are far more stringent than we are with immigrants attempting to enter illegally on boats, plus they have fewer of that type of person.

Just got my Australian visa ... we are going to be travelling for just over 2 months and will be bobbing in and out. Twenty pages long ... just as a tourist!

That's exactly what happens

No need to talk to me like a child.

😂😂

Mass unskilled immigration from Eastern Europe, oh yeah because we could all go and work in Oz in unskilled jobs….

Omg we have a points based system.

I mean this is why it's difficult to take people who have a problem with immigration seriously. If you dont even know the basics or can't be bothered to inform yourself of the basics what on earth is there to discuss.

op now that you know that we have a points based system (and it is not a lenient one) are you happy with legal immigration?

@Backonland if you were in charge and knowing what you now know about the existence of the UK’s points based system, what would you change? And why?

I think the issue is that people are issued " skilled workers" visas for jobs like shops, care work etc that don't even require basic qualifications.

Appreciate that question wasn’t directed to me but in Australia, if you lose your job (the job that gave you sufficient points to get the visa) you have 60 days to get a new one or you and your dependants need to leave the country, and yes they enforce it. Yes it’s harsh.

I wanted to resign and take up a new job. It was a job where I’d be earning the equivalent of +150k (gbp) which I mention for context. But both employers and I would have been required to go to their version of the home office and apply for a transfer of my visa, which is a lot of headache and new employer agreed they’d hold the post until I got my equivalent of ILR (and no longer needed the visa).

I think the issue is that the UKs PBS has too low an income requirement, doesn’t require significant enough contributory requirements (towards school fees, a requirement to have private health insurance for each family dependant, etc) and that once you’re in the country, they don’t bother to kick you out if your circumstances change.

Some Australian visas require you to live in a certain area, they list the post codes where you can live.

If you move out of the post code you can lose your visa.

Yes that’s correct, I’m not too sure what the current detail is but there were (or still are) regional visas where your job doesn’t have to be so in demand / in shortage but you can still come as long as you’re not going to live in a major city. I gather it’s to encourage investment in smaller communities (new families help keep the primary school open etc) and to discourage the burden on the bigger cities which is already significant because all the high salary skilled jobs that people get visas for are in the major cities.

Australia’s system still gets abused - lots of crappy “colleges” offering Mickey Mouse degrees full of (to my observation) Indian students who I understand are really here to work as uber drivers and the like.

but the uk is so incredibly lax.

A lot of care workers coming from India and Africa are nurses. We have a massive shortage of care workers in the UK, that cannot be filled by local people, who seem to not want to wipe bums of the elderly for NMW.

But if we have a points based system, why are so many Romanians here?

I'm not talking qualified nurses.

Talking unqualified care assistants. I cannot in any way shape or form think it's a ," skilled," occupation like doctors for example. And as the pay is low surely the worker isn't earning enough to support a family without extra state help. Have also heard of people coming on such visas then leaving the jobs. Which should then leave them ineligible so unable to stay. The visa should only be lasting however long the job does.

Lesson learned by OP, never start a thread on Mumsnet without doing a five second Google search to check it’s not crap you’re posting as you will be slaughtered. Kindly OP, it’s really is not hard to find out this information.

In other news, I know three entirely separate people who have managed to get to Australia, one on a “Skilled” visa, that wasn’t a proper skilled person at all, and two that came on working holidays before Covid, paid $500 to dodgy people to get extensions and are still living there six years later legally. Neither have more than a handful of GCSEs to their name and went with no work experience either.

No system is infallible.

My point is that they are skilled workers. And they have no recourse to public funds for at least 5 years (this is going to increase to 10), so they are not getting "extra state help". They also have to pay hefty NHS fees as part of their visas. So no, someone coming to work as a carer is not coming with their 4 DC, they can barely afford to live alone.
My DD had a friend in school whose parents both came from the Philippines as care workers. They worked opposite shifts, the mum doing days and the father nights. I have never seen a harder working family. They've been here 10ish years now and I assume they got British nationality, but that hasn't caused them to reduce their hours.

Why not Google and read about our own immigration policies then OP?! Bloody hell. Critical thinking has gone down the pan.

IMMIGRATION IS NOT THE REASON WHY OUR COUNTRY IS FUCKED!

We've already got one

But i get it. The government keep sneaking in various forms of lower skilled labour in different guises and it suppresses wages. Eg exceptions for care workers. A push for an EU youth "work experience" visa. These won't be skilled young engineering or science grads. They will be low skilled eastern europeans willing to work long hours for poor pay, and the government are probably considering it because fruit farmers or seasonal business are lobbying for more cheap workers.

Treat British workers better and there won't be a labour shortage.

Care workers are not skilled workers

The issue with care work isn't the nature of the work or that it's at NMW.

Its that the private groups who own the care homes & agencies want staff they can treat badly - chaotic shift rotas or inconsistent hours to "maximise flexibility", a legacy of poor practises like not paying careworkers for travel time between appointments, shifts that are impractically long, a refusal to give full time hours, making it hard for people to book holiday/use all their annual leave. It doesn't work if you're a parent with kids to support and need a reliable income and regular hours to ensure childcare & keep a roof over your head.

Regulate those working conditions properly and people will happily "wipe the bums of the elderly for NMW".

My DD had a friend in school whose parents both came from the Philippines as care workers. They worked opposite shifts, the mum doing days and the father nights. I have never seen a harder working family. They've been here 10ish years now and I assume they got British nationality, but that hasn't caused them to reduce their hours.

Its not a race to the bottom. We shouldn't aspire to a workforce indoctrinated into the horrendous working practices common in the far east. Often for people comming here to work, remittances that seem like tiny amounts to us are worth vast sums to their families back home, and thats a huge incentive that british workers don't have. A spare tenner eked out of a min wage pay packet isn't going to keep our uk based children fed or in school uniform but it buys a lot in a poorel Asian country.

No it's not a race to the bottom, who said it was? They are happy with their life, back home they'd be working the same hours for less. Their daughter will be entitled to a loan for university here, that would not be an option back home. My point was that a pp (incorrectly) stated that people coming here on visas as carers will be getting topped up with state help. The problem with a lot of 'concerns about immigration' rhetoric is that it is often based on untruths.

And do you really think 8 hour shifts, holiday entitlement and treating carers more nicely will mean local people will happily wipe bums for NMW? I don't think so!

the big difference is between the ones who integrate - like my colleague, been here a long while. Doing everything legally. Renewing visas. Learning our language and adopting our culture whilst sharing their own. Contributing to society (we work with SEND kids) and following the law.

he would be deported and his visa revoked if he committed a crime.

yet a man near where we live without leave to remain (an immigrant claiming persecution) was found in possession of child abuse images wasn’t deported. Wasn’t imprisoned.

can you not see how fucked up and unfair that is?

and to call anyone racist for pointing out that double standard is just stupid on your part.

being critical of immigration policy and how it’s applied doesn’t make you racist, bigot or phobic of any kind.

just like wanting the absolute best for your country and home doesn’t make you right wing or a neo Nazi or facist or whatever the attempted buzzword insult of the month is.

yours, a pissed of traditional liberal fed of idiots throwing around the isms and phobes without having any kind of meaningful discussion of what is an issue that the right, middle and left (though they don’t fucking admit if) are all concerned about.