To think that you can absolutely buy consent

[TheNewWasp]

Unfortunately, we have a constant influx of threads of posters that have caught their spouses having lap dances or spending money on a sexual worker.
Regardless of how hurting this may be, I can't understand why many posters argue that "you can't buy consent".
Not sure if the assumption is that every sexual worker/prostitute is being forced to do that activity. Many do, that is the sad reality, but not all of them.
In fact, we have the occasional poster that said they used to work as a stripper and they used to make fun of their customers but in the end it was just a way of making good money. Was not this person selling their consent for an interaction that otherwise would have not happened?

My point was other work with risks has mitigation. HSE, training, personal protective gear, psychological assessment, access to counselling. Chaperoning if alone with vulnerable or dangerous people. Look at the precautions nurses use to take a simple blood sample.

Of course there are still incidents and a long way to go in many industries but there is no way sex work would pass the most basic of risk assessments.

Really shouldn't have had to explain that.

Because men hold the vast majority of the power in the world. Men are predatory towards women because many do not see women as human beings, rather sex objects for their 'needs'.

1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted or raped in their lifetime by men.

Men earn more, spend less on their appearance and hold the majority of positions of power.

Unfortunately, women who strip for money objectify not just themselves but all women as a sex class because they perpetuate the idea that women are objects to be viewed and paid for, as opposed the whole human beings.

Depends how you define consent. If you think of it allowing oneself to be used for someone else's gratification, regardless of your own wishes to have sex with the person, then yes, you can buy that. If you think of it as enthusiastic proactive desire to engage in the act for the act itself, which we teach our children it is, then no you can't buy that. You are just buying permission to by pass consent.

That sounds incredibly challenging but hopefully rewarding in some instances too.

It seems that on mumsnet at least, the dictionary defnition of consent has changed cos some posters don't like the idea of a woman accepting payment for sex.

Let's all remind ourselves of the real dictionary definition shall we

1. permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.

So if a woman agrees to have sex, be it for money or some other transactional benefit, in the non mumsnet world this woudl be consensual.

And don't get me started on sugar daddy/baby arrangements.

It seems that some people, on mumsnet at least, fail to comprehend how consent can be coerced and that coerced consent is not consent at all.

Great, and back in the real world, how do you check if someone is being trafficked/coerced or not? You can't. The issue is not women selling their consent, it's men not knowing if someone is truly consenting or not, and doing it anyway.

@blueliner "The more women that agree to men penetrating them for cash or watching them undress around a pole the more it normalises the idea women are there for men’s enjoyment. I really wish women who have free choice would consider this point."

This I do agree with. But I think you'll find that men (whether we dance around a pole or not) will always see us as sex objects to a greater or lesser extent. I think most women would be horrified to think that their lovely and supportive male friend, given the opportunity, wouldn't think twice about shagging her for example.

I don't think that was the question though.

The question was can a woman consent, not are all women consenting.

Different question, Different answer

True @ginasevern

It would be a great start to not sell our bodies to men out of choice though wouldn't it. If all women stopped 'choosing' (as @boredwfh claims) to sell their bodies then at the very least all men would know they are committing rape if they pay for sex. They would know for sure the woman they just paid for was trafficked and their sperm dump was into a very vulnerable human being.

This whole thread be like
Op: some women, sometimes can consent to sex for money

But trafficked women! But who would consent to a dirty diseased penis in their vagina! But even the ones who think they are consenting can't be, they must be damaged or mentally ill! But working as a cleaner isn't the same as being penetrated!

I'm out....

and you ignored the point about those choosing to consent are making life more difficult for all women as a sex class.

Exactly.

Prostitution is the only “job” that involves direct contact with saliva, semen, blood and potentially urine and feces

Errr there are other jobs where you might have to clean stuff like that up. Some jobs are pretty degrading and nobody would do them for free. And most of the time with prostitution, it’s not going to be blood and feces and urine is it?
It’s weird that you can have so many women saying that they consent to sex work and aren’t coerced into it yet people refuse to believe it.

I notice no one owned up to using Vietnamese nail salons & the lack of consideration whilst using these whether the workers are trafficked & working without consent, coerced etc.. therefore you are complicit in the same behaviours as the men who use lap dancing clubs. But it’s ok cos it’s not sex just nails so it’s different. 🙄 anyway as an ex sex worker with real life experience, I think I’ve made my point.

I didn't engage with it because it's a silly question. I don't use them, I avoid 'using' trafficked people at all. I don't even eat chocolate that isn't fair trade.

But even if I did, trafficking is dreadful. Being trafficked and then repeatedly raped day-after=day is worse.

By the same token, all men who work in the armed forces are making life more difficult for all men as a sex class.

Yeah I mean if women couldn’t possibly consent to intercourse with someone for money, how on earth could a man ever consent to potentially being killed at work?

Sorry, but those posters who can’t see the difference between “sex work” and spending 7.5 hrs a day in office need to cop on to themselves.

I actually think it's an interesting point in terms of a wider discussion about whether consent can be bought and what our tolerance is for exploitation.

There is an unfathomable amount of exploitation and slavery going on which, in western societies, is apparently regarded as acceptable and it goes way beyond women who are being sexually exploited. You only have to look at the Shein threads on here, for example, to see that slavery and child labour is quite merrily handwaved away when there's a cheap dress in the offing, despite there being an abundance of affordable second hand clothes in the world.

If a woman can't consent to sexual activities if she's paid, does the enslaved child being paid 75p for a 60 hour week truly consent to make your t-shirt, and if not then why is one considered worse than the other?

Sadly a very big problem which I doubt we will see resolved in our lifetimes.

I don’t necessarily think it’s being compared to working in an office. What about if your job involves you to do things that would otherwise turn your stomach such as cleaning up the bodily waste of others? What if it carries a high chance of injury such as carrying bags for those climbing up Everest?
And what about being shot at at work? Being required to go into open fire from an enemy knowing that either you or your friends will likely get killed or maimed? Don’t pretend that sex work is the most dangerous or unpalatable work there is going.

If you see me doing that on a Shein thread, send help because I've been kidnapped.

And I think the Venn diagram of women supporting the Nordic model, wearing Shein with nails from a dodgy salon is probably close to two circles.

Sorry I don't mean you personally, I'm just musing on the wider issue (I also won't touch Shein with a bargepole).

Yes, there are a lot of manual labourers who have to retire in their 60s because their bodies are knackered, night shift workers who've taken years off their lives etc.

I'm under no illusions about sex work and the majority of individuals who take part in it - I just think that if you carry the arguments over to other areas, it opens up interesting conversations about work/wealth/consent in society at large.

For example, there is at least the theory of "premium" sex work engaged in by willing and uninhibited young women for a high rate.

I'm not so sure there's an equivalent "premium" shelf stacker role where you do a small amount of shelf stacking in luxurious circumstances and get paid a lot for it. Maybe in drugs trade?