To feel out of my depth with teen DD?

[ChrisReaPoppedAnEggInMyBath]

I type this from officially the end of my tether and when I say I'm desperate for advice, I mean I'm DESPERATE and would welcome thoughts and suggestions before I completely lose my mind/marbles/will to live.

My DD is a glorious creature and I adore the bones of her, but I'm questioning everything from our parenting style and our ability to do right by her and for her (and her sister, which is a whole other story) and I suspect I need some tough love from MN as I can't see the wood for the trees.

DD is 13 and has ADHD which manifests itself with Demand Avoidance and Rejection Sensitivity Disphoria, which means that her setting is that everyone and everything is against her. Growing up, she has experienced a lot of teasing, bullying and comments about her height (she's always been the smallest in her year by some way) and this has shaped her attitude and response to life. She regards any comment as a potential attack on her (when they very rarely are) and while she seems feisty and brave, she's actually the very opposite.

Recently we moved her school - for countless reasons but also in response to her request as she'd had a tough time over the past couple of years and we all agreed a fresh start would be good, and she was on board with this. She saw all the benefits of the move, and seemed to understand the reality of the move and that it would take time to settle in and become familiar. She was nervous, but was brilliant in tackling it head on - we've told her countless times how impressed we are and how proud of her.

She's now been in her new school for a couple of weeks and despite coming out smiling and with lots of positive chat (and really positive feedback from the teachers) and new friendships forming, she's now decided that she hates it and, having been off a few days with a horrible bug, she's said she won't be going back on Monday.

She initially said she wanted to go back to her old school, but is now campaigning to be homeschooled with online classes as she says, the education system is failing and it's not right for her. She's sent me case studies and links to back up why online learning is better for her.

This is all repeated behaviour. She rejects or reacts against things in a heartbeat, and it can be anything from a particular meal, outfit or TV programme to a holiday destination, activity, friendship or in this case, school. It's like she has to have something to lash out at or fight against. She goes to the immediate big reaction (I HATE IT) but then it's so hard to move her from that viewpoint. She can't (not won't) see any other perspective or the bigger picture, it's like the shutters have come down.

We've asked what she'd like to change about school ('all of it'), what doesn't she like ('all of it'), what's good about it ('none of it'), and what in particular makes her so unhappy ('the environment'), but we see her when she comes out and she's genuinely OK. We appreciate it's not going to feel familiar and safe yet, but she's just not wanting to give it time - preferring to stay away and not engage with it.

What doesn't help is that she won't talk face to face, so to go deeper, we have to converse by message. She won't talk, she doesn't want to talk to a counsellor or a therapist, and instead she focusses on something new/different which will solve all the problems.

I'm really struggling to know what to do. Our parenting style has always been to work with the kids, not just tell them what's what, but I don't think this is actually always the right thing. In my research it says kids with Demand Avoidance need to have choices and control, but how when it's something as critical as school? And, in life, we don't always have choice or control, we have to ride the waves and be brave and do things we don't want to do.

The fact is she's not given it a chance to become familiar and great, she's given it a few days and made her mind up, and this isn't how you can go through life.
We've tried all different approaches - gentle encouragement, telling her how proud we are of her, cheering her in and celebrating wins, getting cross and telling her she HAS to go. In desperation to try something different I even shouted and said how she would be going in, school wasn't optional, and that I would pick her up and carry her in if it came to it. Not my finest parenting but I was desperate to try and get through to her, and she then told me all the ways in which I don't understand her, or even try to, and how I judge her and it makes her feel worse.

We've always tried to be her biggest champion, but I can't help but feel we're continually going wrong. Any ideas or suggestions for what to do next?

I have a dd like this. No diagnosis (assessed once for asd who pretty much said she could hold an intelligent conversation and had insight into how she feels so she’s fine 🙄).

Managed to drag her through school with a lot of support from her friends until it all fell apart in year 10 and she barely attended the last 18 months of high school. Scraped a couple of GCSEs with a lot of accommodations and is now just coming out the other side and started to do work experience.

I think she probably was in burnout although I hadn’t heard of that at the time. She barely left her room for 6 months, stopped eating, lots of self harming. I totally recognise the school refusal leading to ‘life refusal’ situation. Extremely stressful and miserable for the whole family.

Today she has been out shopping with her grandparents and then been out for a big family birthday meal. Both would have been completely unthinkable this time last year.

I am loving having my daughter back now the pressure of school is gone. I very much wish I’d taken her out sooner.

Our EOTAS agreement came through the week before she started her GCSEs having applied for it a year prior so if the refusal continues and her mental health declines I recommend you get the ball rolling with that asap. You’ll need evidence from your GP.

I really feel for you-the ‘wanting to go back to her old school’ thinking is probably why I didn’t move mine-I knew she wouldn’t be any happier in a new environment.
Yours sounds like it’s worth trying for longer.
I would have a chat with her along the lines of … being ill makes you feel more unsettled. Your brain can’t make good decisions when you’ve been ill. Take some time to feel better and think again in a few days.

You’ll need evidence from your GP.

This is an unlawful LA blanket policy. It is not the law.

Oh my gosh this is totally her too. Never satisfied (or not for long anyway)

What was a lie? What was setting her up to fail?

OP was considering home schooling as an alternative to DD refusing to go but feels the current school is better choice. Home schooling isn't easy and OP can't set it up instantly. She needs to present her DD with some options and choices and explain what DD needs to do to access those choices.

Did you have anything helpful to say?

Bloody jellycats!

Mines got piles of them. Then she got overwhelmed by her jellycats!!!! So she has a select few. The rest are gathering dust in the attic.

When my dd was still in children’s services, the pyschologist we saw said loads of girls collect jellycats. She knew all about Bashfuls and Corderoys.

Mine is so contrary that she doesn’t like jelly cats now they are popular 😂.

Not read every page, but wanted to hop on to say I agree that ADHD meds can be incredibly effective, they can increase focus and concentration, reduce anxiety and overwhelm and generally help someone with ADHD feel so much better.

However, the medication is also known to have various side effects, from minor to quite serious side effects.
Most people on ADHD meds need to drastically reduce or even cut out all caffeine and energy drinks as these have a stimulating effect.
There are also common side effects such as stomach issues, constipation, diarrhoea, severe reduction in appetite, nausea that ranges from mild to severe, sleep issues, and you are advised to take the medication in the morning for this reason, headaches, and more seriously, the stimulant variety of these meds raises your heart rate and blood pressure.
Many people experience heart palpations on these meds too.
While anyone embarking on these meds will be asked for a history of heart problems in the family and in the patient, some people will be unaware they have an issue until after they begin the meds.
Most people are put on the stimulant variety.
My DC has combined ADHD and struggled immensely but felt so much better mentally taking the meds, was prescribed Xaggitin XL to start with. This worked well, but created side effects of such severe nausea that she had to take another medication to offset the nausea, which whilst 'switching off' the nausea, did nothing to prevent the vomiting, so we had a situation where there was almost no warning that she was going to vomit, not the easiest thing to deal with when you are travelling or walking around the shops. Xaggitin XL also created a severe lack of appetite so weight had to be strictly monitored, and then there were the headaches.
Still, DD persevered with this med, because of the positive effects, less emotional eruptions, was able to focus for longer on work, felt calmer.
Until there was a shortage of Xaggitin XL and DD was changed to Medikinet.
The original side effects remained, but now there were stomach issues, infected skin rashes and chest pains as well.
We were told these would settle down, so at this point, DD is prescribed antibiotic creams and wash lotion to combat the skin infections, but the chest pains got worse and DD has a high pain threshold! It became debilitating so back to the paediatrician, who prescribes Xaggitin XL again, and we search every month for a pharmacy that has it in stock, except the side effects were still present, even after 3 months, so another change to Concerta. Side effects persisted and
at this point, DD is on 7 different medications to offset the side effects of the ADHD meds, which the paediatrician agreed was bonkers!
So another change to Elvanse and this reduced the side effects to the point that DD could reduce the meds for side effects down from 7 to 4.
This is not medication to take without fully weighing up benefit versus downsides, and it did absolutely nothing to reduce DD's demand avoidance!
Frankly, I'm astonished at the posts that extol the virtues of this type of medication without any mention of the risks.
Even if your child is fortunate enough not to have any of the common side effects, this medication is a stimulant (in most cases) and in almost all people, raises their blood pressure and heart rate noticeably.

oh god my daughter too. She fixates on something and never bloody shuts up about it. Will be out shopping with friends and fixate on a coat she must have. It’s one she’s wanted for 2 years (despite never mentioning it) expects me to transfer £90 on the spot to buy it.

Then I obviously say no and she starts going in about her coats, I try and say but I thought that was the one you wanted and must have so why do you want a different one.

Its endless. I joke she will get everything in life she wants because she will just grind people down until they give in.

But not everyone gets these. My dd who is ultra sensitive to EVERYTHING got through the first month of nausea and sleeplessness and then was fine.

The reduced appetite helped her shift the weight she’s put in through seeking dopamine sugar. But then that settled after 6 months and now her appetite is normal.

@whatohwhattodo

Oh my days, my daughter is SO obsessive. She will harp on about something endlessly. Next year, she is going to visit a friend of mine in a country that she has always wanted to visit. A normal level of excitement would be lovely and so infectious. And I am happy for her. But this is off the scale! It can’t just be normal excitement, it’s got to be ‘oh, I hate the UK. I’ll never be happy until I live in X.’ It’s like a constant block to everyday satisfaction and contentment.
I swear, it’s bloody exhausting to listen to.

You are right, not everyone gets these side effects, but they are common and worth mentioning if someone is considering this path for their child.
It is a medication that is not without it's very real and potentially serious side effects, and I'm agog that most people don't make any mention of any of these!

'DD is 13 and has ADHD which manifests itself with Demand Avoidance and Rejection Sensitivity Disphoria, which means that her setting is that everyone and everything is against her. Growing up, she has experienced a lot of teasing, bullying and comments about her height (she's always been the smallest in her year by some way) and this has shaped her attitude and response to life. She regards any comment as a potential attack on her (when they very rarely are) and while she seems feisty and brave, she's actually the very opposite.'

I wonder if it may be helpful to look at your DD's experiences more widely, not only via ND lense. RSD is usually related to difficult past experiences or to how we interpreted the past difficult situation. It is not the part of diagnostic criteria - and can be experienced by all - but ND can make the reaction/emotions stronger. She's expecting others to be against her based on her past experience and in absence of current rejection, so reacts before getting hurt to protect herself.

Hope things will settle.

You ok hun? Just read your other posts. Why are you so keen to medicate children?

I think there are many things to try here before dosing your kids up with god knows what. Setting them up for a lifetime of reliance on medication is abhorrent. They don’t have a bloody chance.

Our job as parents is to arm them with the knowledge, strengths and skills they need to lead a happy and fulfilled life, even if it’s tough love that’s required. I suspect OP that your daughter needs some of this.

Why is it abhorrent if it enables them to live a life to the full potential.

Unmedicated my dd wouldn’t leave the house and her grades were all over the place.

Medicated she was a potential Oxbridge candidate and could have a life.

She wants them. Whats abhorrent about that?

l saw a lecture by an American doctor on dopamine in the amyglyda. Unmedicated the amyglada is full of holes, which causes a lot of the symptoms. Medicated the hikes disappear and become like a NT persons amyglyda.

Good for you and your daughter. Looks like you’ve gone down many roads and been seen by PROFESSIONALS who have diagnosed your daughter with something that they think requires medication.

I suspect you weren’t given forceful advice on Mumsnet in your hour of need with comments like “meds?” or “I don’t know why you haven’t considered meds before now”.

I probably was. And l took the advice.

Theres a huge difference in girls vs boys presenting and the onset of puberty in girls further complicating things. So you do go from 0-10 very quickly which means at the beginning meds feels unnecessary and huge. Yet within a year it’s got desperate.

Would you refuse to medicate your child if they had diabetes?

ADHD is a medical condition. It is managed by medication.

What have school sen said when you’ve spoken to them?
what support can they put in place?

the “everything’s shit” response is entirely normal and usual for girls with your daughters Sen. What happens if you focus on the positives of the day? E.g how was science? How was miss x? Ask the questions specifically and you’ll get a truer response.

DBT is not just for people with BPD, it used for loads od people and you don't need an official diagnosis of anything to get any type of therapy.

DBT can be helpful will learning skills not just of regulation, but also mindfulness, emotion regulation (by naming and regulating feeling, not reacting to everything immediately, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness. It also builds resilience by practicing sticking with tasks and coping with boredom.

DBT was initially designed for BPD but spread and is now used for way more. It can be used for mood disorders, like depression or anxiety, behavioural problems and a good therapist can change it to align with the specific goals of each patient.

Also I know how more energy leads to burnout, also struggling to finish tasks etc, so it can be helpful to learn how to use your energy well and try to manage all of what ADHD can cause, both good and bad. As OP said her DD particularly struggles with RSD and also demand avoidance, DBT can help with things like giving her strategies to tolerance distressing feeling for longer, communicate that to adults, use mindfulness tasks ?colouring or whatever she likes) to process big feelings and to notice them as well. DBT can also help with tools to reduce the all-or-nothing thinking which can often happen, and even just things like self-worth which can be affected by ADHD.

Oh dear

from start to finish. Oh dear.

No one can get meds without a professional diagnosis and prescription

Monday morning update:

After I posted on Saturday, and I read all your responses, I did a lot of reading, watching and researching online. I spoke with DD a few different times, and in a few different ways: some written, some spoken, some sitting next to her with me agreeing not to make eye contact (she acknowledged this with a grin) and we've experienced every range of emotions from sobbing face down in a cushion to eye rolling and laughter, with a tonne of sarcasm and dark humour in the middle.

The upshot is that she says:
She was unhappy at her old school but now says she didn't appreciate that it 'wasn't that bad'.
At the new school, she doesn't dislike the children, the teachers, the style of teaching, the work, the building... she just doesn't think it's right for her.
She admitted that if she doesn't feel comfortable or at ease, her immediate reaction is to get herself out of that situation. She'll often text me from sleepovers/friends' houses/events along the lines of 'please come and get me' and it's urgent and she can't focus on anything else. But then the moment passes, and by the time I arrive, she's alright again and wants to stay.
She also acknowledged that when she fixes on an idea, it's hard to change her point of view and she HATES being proved wrong so she won't budge from an opinion.
She recognises her 'all or nothing' attitude sometimes doesn't help. Something is either the only thing in the world she wants, or she can barely remember it. Right now, she's campaigning for a dwarf hamster and it's her focus to the point where she's said she'll go to school FOREVER if she can have one.

We went through a couple of things yesterday and I explained that home schooling isn't an option for now - finances, logistics, our work, etc. She then immediately turned her focus to going back to her old school. When I explained that all of the things she'd said about the education system not suiting her would still apply at her old school, she argued the opposite but without much conviction.

My gut feel still is that she is uncomfortable at the new school and it's this discomfort that she's desperate to remove. I assured her that no, she doesn't fit in completely because it's so new, and nothing new feels great immediately, especially when it's something functional like school. We moved house a few years ago and even though the new house was 100 x better for countless reasons, both she and her sister cried to go back to the old house because it was what they knew.

She struggled to go to sleep last night but was resigned to going in this morning, and we had a few conversations about how she was going to do her hair. She wanted to see a friend from her old school after school over the weekend which I put off, as this definitely makes her more anti the new school, but I've agreed she can see her after school today as it felt like I was punishing her.

This morning was a struggle - she's always struggled with Mondays, and mornings, but with gentle encouragement, reminders, some humour and a sprinkling of tough love, she appeared, in her uniform and hair done, and while she was a little wobbly in the car, she did go in with her sister. And for once, her sister was a help, encouraging her without patronising her, and so they went in together.

So for now, we live to fight another day, and I just hope that she has a good day - she has some nice lessons, and I know the friends she met are really looking forward to seeing her, so hopefully it'll be positive.

She's already mentioned the hamster five times...

Are you planning on still actively progressing discussions with trying meds?

100% get the hamster! That’s got to be an easier win than a school move.

I love dwarf hamsters and as pets go they are pretty low maintenance, cheap, short lived and don’t care too much if they are subsequently ignored. In fact get 2 female dwarf hamsters as they are the only ones where you can get two together if it’s from birth. We had two and I loved those little buggers. They were close to my ideal pet. Charming and cute to watch but undemanding. When they were older they would sometimes fall asleep in a pocket or on a lap. We’ve got a dog and 2 rats now that the kids wanted but for me I’d really rather have the little hammies again.