AIBU to think my handover should actually be a handover, not me being snapped at?

[Slightlymalted]

Everyone knows the job market is tough at the moment. I’ve read on here and elsewhere that the best way to get ahead is to reach out directly to companies you’re interested in and to lean on your network. I did exactly that at the start of the year and managed to line up some consultancy/advisory work.

It went well, and people at the company were really positive about me. They even said at the time that if there was a vacancy they’d love to have me properly on board. At that stage there wasn’t a role beyond the consultancy bit, so I just carried on.

Then the woman who heads up this area decided to resign. From what I gather she was competent enough, but she didn’t gel with the leadership team and there had been a bit of friction. The company seemed pretty happy about her decision to leave, and to be totally honest, so was I because it opened up this opportunity for me.

So now I’m doing the handover with her, and here’s where I’m struggling. The role is a lot bigger than I thought, she’s been juggling a huge amount. I really want to do well in this position, and I am committed to it, but I’m finding the handover process frustrating.

We’ve already had something like 15 hours of handover sessions. At first she was going through things properly, but now she’s very obviously losing patience. She’s started snapping and when I ask questions, instead of explaining, she just says things like “you just know this” or “you just do.” Which is not helpful when I’m trying to understand how things actually work in practice.

I appreciate she might feel resentful that I’m stepping into her role, but that’s not my fault, and I’m just trying to learn. I’m frustrated because I feel like I’m not being given the best chance to succeed, and I don’t want to start off badly in what should be a really positive step for me.

So, AIBU to expect her to stay professional and actually hand things over properly, regardless of how she feels about me? Would you raise it with the CEO/leadership that the handover isn’t being done properly, or should I just muddle through and piece things together myself?

I don't know what you are all talking about. For academic positions or management positions it is common to spend a week doing handover.

You can't expect someone to take over such a complex role with just a day or two for handover.

In general the person is gone by the time you start and there's no physical handover @Fimofriend . Surely the joy of a senior role is making it your own? If it's just following someone else's template, what's the point?

I mean this kindly, but 15 hours is such a long time to be handing over and it sounds like she is fully over it. In a different situation, she would leave and the new person would start when she had gone. She may also feel that all of the questions seem to highlight her flaws or what she hadn’t done ‘right’ at work of that makes sense. I’m sure that’s not your intention but do you think that could be a bit of what’s going on?

15 HOURS???? I would be pulling my hair out at this. Are you just shadowing her or are you having separate meetings to do this? I hope you're writing notes, nothing more annoying than someone training and not writing any notes, then asking questions you have already given answers to.

You don’t seem to be considering your impact on her. 15 hours is a huge amount of time and she doesn’t owe you or the company anything. The fact that things started well and now she’s getting snappy with you suggests to me that you are expecting her to tell you every minute detail and being tedious in asking her to tell you how she did the job. She doesn’t owe you her years of experience, you have to build up your own experience, that’s why the first few months of a new job can be so stressful, not knowing anything or anyone and having to work it out as you go along. I think you are being unreasonable.

If she had left already you'd get no handover. You're being massively unreasonable- just jump in a learn as you go, as anyone would for any office-based job.
Leave her alone and start flying with your own wings.

Fifteen hours is a lot, I have never have more than a few pages and a staff handbook, including very senior positions.

A handover isn’t there to train you at all, a handover is to make sure you know the company HR, where files are kept, what systems are used etc. A handover is a small induction, it is not on the job training. A lot of places I have worked at put leaving staff on gardening leave so they aren’t expected to baby an incoming employee, as they often flounder when the employee’s notice period is over.

I think your expectations appear to be that the woman you're replacing should be training you rather than just giving a handover. If she thinks that she is supposed to be handing over rather than training, I can understand how there is a mismatch in expectations.

I supervise newly qualified workers and have regular supervision sessions with them but if they were asking me the basics of HOW to do the job, I'd be very worried about their capacity and competence. Even in relation to system quirks, I'd expect to point them in the direction of where to find the info rather than tell them what to do. I appreciate it is a different scenario but this woman isn't even your line manager so I think you are expecting way too much from her.

Are there coaching opportunities within the organisation where even more senior managers take newer managers under their wing? Could you speak to your manager about your training requirements?

You sound like you want spoon feeding to do a job you can’t do

But right now I don’t feel I’ve been given the tools to come close to either. It’s not about wanting every tiny detail spoon-fed, it’s about having enough of a foundation to replicate her daily work so the department output doesn’t suffer during the transition

If it’s a senior position, you should already have the tools in your personal tool kit though, and you should already be able to spring from a solid enough foundation you create yourself the minute your bum hits the seat. The rest is just icing, and if you need 15 solid hours or more then you are lacking in both, which really shouldn’t be her problem, and I’d very careful about pointing this out to more senior management.

Agree with this !
Often departing employees do the square root of eff all.
Her job is not actually to handover to you. That's probably not in her JD. Her job is to do her job.
Sounds like she did a good job because she held a lot in her head. You're clearly rubbing her up the wrong way with your questions so why dont you take a different approach?
Rather than handover. Could you work shadow? So have her produce the report and then sit next to her watching what she does? Or try asking her different questions... maybe discuss specific situations rather than theory? So ask her last month when you did xx, what was your thought process ? Or reverse shadow where you start doing the job and then give her your work for a review.

Do you have a team that report to you? If not you’re on a hiding to nothing - sorry.

It sounds very much like my previous workplace where either your face fitted or not.

It sounds like your predecessor was incredibly productive, but less polished on the social skills side and she has created a large amount of bespoke reporting ( possibly) which she then interprets and presents to senior management. Only now are people appreciating how much she actually did.

Instead of continuing to hound her for information, I would take a step back. How much of her role is reasonable for one person to do, which areas provide the most value to the leadership team and put in a case for focusing on those and either dropping, or getting in additional staff to carry out the less urgent stuff.

Do not whatever you do, tattle on her to your bosses. What did you expect? Sounds like she has effectively been managed out to give you a job.

Of course she can😂 she has to physically turn up for her notice period to get paid, she really doesn’t have to do anything else, what are they going to do- sack her? She’s already gone!

She doesn’t owe you a thing, or the business.

Depends on the nature of the role. If it’s highly processed driven and repetitive then you need a good handover and it can be documented. But senior jobs are rarely like that - they require judgment and experience which can’t be put into a handover document.
I have never received a handover document and barely ever had a handover meeting, and I’ve done well in my career. Similarly there’s no way I’d spend 15 hours either someone taking over from me. I’ll document the boring process stuff and brief on any important nuances and then over to you.
Sounds like you need to manage your expectations significantly.

Op
That is one of the most naive comments I've read of your Mumsnet.
The vast majority of people working out their notice ( particularly where they feel aggrieved do not kill themselves during their handover which to be fair at 15 hours has been comprehensive enough.At senior level somethings are simply a judgement call based on experience , not every decision process has a sop .
I think , the best hope is for you to start doing her job now and letting her step back with the proviso that you can pick her brains as you come across stuff you can't handle.

Sometimes you have to have an understanding for the person who is leaving a role. You note there was a history of friction so chances are she is leaving because she is unhappy.

i left a job I had been in for a long time, was very skilled and had enjoyed it. Had to leave as the job became horrid and still to this day has impacted my metal health.

i was expected to serve my notice, hand everything over, train up potential replacements and go out with a smile. I should have served my notice off sick but professional pride did not let me.

That notice period was unpleasant. It was NOT in my job role to train any other successor or potential successor , and anticipate neither is it hers. All she has to do is continue her normal job role.

That is the organisation/ companies problem to be frank.

A handover can be a luxury as some staff can leave quickly ( ill health/ dismissal/ walk out/ RIP). She could just go off sick.

Just make the most of it, be pragmatic , don’t be so self centred.

You should spend time with the ceo or whoever she's been reporting into to understand more about what they want from the role. ID any gaps, then say to her to write down the process for abc. Stop meeting with her. Force her to write it down.

The replies here have been so eye opening
to me. They explain why so many senior managers seem to bumble around the office doing nothing, spouting blue sky thinking managerial word salad, changing things for no good reason, clueless as to the practicality or efficacy of their ideas, and fudging answers to important questions while their staff are run off their feet. Because they had no training and have to give the impression of being in charge while masking their cluelessness about how tthe place actually works.

I think OP is right to want to know the mechanics. The operating systems, specid software, expectations from above and below. And learning these thoroughly takes time. 15 hours is only two working days. Senior staff should get more training not less.

Every time there is a query or a question why not write it down/type it on your laptop/I pad? Then go through the info presented and find the answer for yourself.

I’m surprised you think it’s common. I’m not saying it’s unheard of, but given how many replacements at a senior level involve someone moving to a competitor (and therefore a period of garden leave) or a very long recruitment process, more often than not the previous incumbent is long gone by the time the replacement arrives. It’s quite rare to have the outgoing and the incoming working alongside one another for a significant period.

The point is - who is expected to do this training.
That is a company wide issue, not soley the role of the outgoing person.
Piss her off by ‘ forcing’ her to do stuff may backfire. She could just walk at any moment as she has nothing to loose.

And that causes so much bad management at high levels. Loads of responsibility but superficial or non existent knowledge of working practice.

Lack of skill sharing and knowledge dissemination at a high level isn't something to be proud of.

But that’s the point: this is a handover not training. They are two very separate things. I personally would not want an aggrieved colleague who is leaving due to a personality clash to be responsible for training an incoming colleague-that is such a risk.

After the handover the OP should then receive training on the job, which is the responsibility of the company, not the person working their notice.

15 hours is a ridiculous amount of time to spend on a handover, and I also find it strange that the OP has been told this woman has autism as if that is any of her business. Red flags everywhere.

15 hours of handover is absurd.

A handover is not training.

It's a overview of the tasks, where the files live, what the report cadence is. Intro to the wider team with a run down of each person.

After that, you are on your own, and why you get paid the big bucks.