To feel sad some women are forced to go back to work

[JTT95]

I think it is messed up that these days a lot of women have to go back to work after maternity leave whether they like it or not. It seems like everyone is sending their babies to nursery at 1 or even earlier. I know that some women want to and are happy to go back but there are many women who are heartbroken to leave their babies so young. I wish it was like the olden days where a man’s wage was enough to suport the whole family.

In absolute terms women do absolutely have more choices.

Each individual woman may not have every choice open to her today, her choices will be limited by a huge range of factors including her experience, education level, network, her husband’s income, the quality of their relationship etc. Some women have to work and some can’t work.

But the theoretical range of choices open is much larger. Until the 1970s it was legal to exclude a person from consideration for a job based on their sex.

Pointing out that women had significantly fewer rights in the 1950s than today is not saying the 1950s was 'the most evil and sexist decade ever'. It was worse for women before the 1950s (except perhaps in some ways during the war when women did have more independence and opportunities than before or after). In previous decades, women didn't have the vote. Rape was considered a crime against another man's property, because women were legally and socially not fully human.

What I mean by this is that we could roll things back further than the 50s and things would be even worse. We should really bear in mind how recently some of our rights were won and how fragile they really are. And that should keep us on our guard against people who are trying to argue in favour of regression.

Also tbh it wasn’t always true that a single salary covered the entire family. And when it did it often covered the bare minimum with nothing left over.

Yeah, this is my objection to the "all women worked! most for money!" talking point.

A part time school hours job or taking in some ironing to do in the evenings is just not comparable in terms of time spent away from children.

Monday to Friday full time including a commute for mothers of young children is historically weird.

Every wide scale historical example I am familiar with involves either very part time work (scaling up as children grew up) or a job where you can have your children with you as you work.

I also don't really get why you wouldn't acknowledge that women with very young children have almost always been at least partially supported by and therefore dependent on men; you might argue that this isn't a model you want to return to, but it's quite odd to try to rewrite history to make all the women into fully financially independent girlbosses.

@OneAmberFinch

I also don't really get why you wouldn't acknowledge that women with very young children have almost always been at least partially supported by and therefore dependent on men; you might argue that this isn't a model you want to return to, but it's quite odd to try to rewrite history to make all the women into fully financially independent girlbosses.

No one is doing anything of the sort. People are pointing out that the era that is held up as a template for ideal parenting is actually a historical and demographic anomaly.

The central thesis of this thread is that its “sad” and “heartbreaking” that women are likely to have to work, which posits the idea that its some aberration from the norm. When it turns out the norm has historically been that more women have worked than not.

Oh and this “girlboss” phrase can get in the bin. So condescending and disrespectful.

actually. No I didn’t say that everyone should be in paid employment. I gave my opinion and stated my reasons why I went back to work.

it does seem a bit odd that you’ve posted on AIBU then just disagreed with everyone who has a different opinion than you.

The tone of your last sentence sounds like you are telling people what to do: “Earn money, lead by example and show your children a good work ethic and most of all, don’t reply on a man for survival”

lol. I might use that quote for my tombstone one day!

It’s fairly good advice tbf 😂

I was born on 1973 and my brother in 1976. Mum worked in the evenings as an office cleaner because it fitted around school hours and my dad's work. Later on, she worked Saturdays in various shops and libraries. She is a very clever woman but put us first and took whatever job gave her the right hours. There was no maternity pay and money was tight. It wasn't a golden age. Women today are lucky to be able to hang onto their career, get maternity leave and rights, pensions and subsidised childcare. They can also keep more independence than my mum enjoyed.

I agree it's true that mothers in the past did more working with the children around. My mother worked full time in the early 80s and I spent many school holidays in her office entertaining myself.

However.. was that a good thing? There was a lot of low level neglect going on. I certainly was kinda miserable sitting there for weeks at a time, I would have been delighted to be in childcare instead

I think it's an indictment on our culture that so many women spend very long stretches of time away from their young children in the course of said work, which is indeed an historical aberration.

I disagree with using binary "worked" vs "didn't work" in attempting to answer this question because critically, many of the types of work that women used to do were a) either in the home or in a setting where they could bring young children, and b) could be set down or paused to attend to a child's needs immediately. This is absolutely not comparable to the average office job with scheduled Zoom meetings etc.

I think it is sad and heartbreaking that our babies are separated from us, their mothers, at a young age, and that we think this is normal.

FYI I have a M-F City job and my baby is in formal nursery 4 days a week, so this is not me passing judgement on others; I wish I didn't have to do this, I wish I had more options for pre-IR "piecework" style work that would be more suited to this stage of my life. I don't think I'm an outlier in this respect.

Women have always worked.

You have options
you have options to live a much more basic life
perhaps earning some money on evening shift after your hsband works a day shift
in a smaller house somewhere less desirable with just the basics of life
but you don’t choose that minimalistic life

FYI I have a M-F City job and my baby is in formal nursery 4 days a week, so this is not me passing judgement on others; I wish I didn't have to do this, I wish I had more options for pre-IR "piecework" style work that would be more suited to this stage of my life. I don't think I'm an outlier in this respect.

Do you really think this 'piecework' you so covet would have earned anything more than subsistence money? And that it wouldn't have been extremely precarious, with no benefits, no sick pay, no possibility of promotion and all the other rights we take for granted?

If you're so desperate for such an existence, why not give up your high paying job and find some zero hour job that will give you more flexibility? Or downsize your life so that you can afford not to work?

@IcedPurple

Do you really think this 'piecework' you so covet would have earned anything more than subsistence money? And that it wouldn't have been extremely precarious, with no benefits, no sick pay, no possibility of promotion and all the other rights we take for granted?

Exactly.

Everyone is saying "women have always worked!!" but as you correctly say, this would usually be extra money for the household supplementing a man's wage, or a subsistence income for a widow etc - I am pushing back against the idea that in the past, on a large scale, women were working long hour career-type jobs and leaving their babies elsewhere for the entire day. I'm speaking of pre-industrial revolution periods especially, and to some extent until the mid-20th century.

Do we have agreement there?

(When I talk about piecework style jobs for myself I am thinking more of independent consulting, report writing, analysis in my field etc which is an option I'm pursuing for myself especially after baby #2; I'm definitely not quitting my job to take in ironing as I cannot afford it. Any woman would attest that this kind of work is much harder to find/create than the default 5 days a week office job though. I think the next gen of feminists should start with "mothers should not be away from their babies for long periods" as a starting premise rather than confidently stating women can just "slot in" to existing male-pattern workplaces and career paths because we are just dickless men.)

Feminists are already making the exact point that workplaces need to change and arguing for greater flexibility eg wfh, changing hours, job shares etc. They're already in this generation pointing out that workplaces are unfairly geared towards men. Already making the case for maternity leave/childcare responsibilities to not be things that hold women back.

There will always be jobs that require travel and fixed hours but the call for wfh and flexibility is already making M-F commute to an office jobs less appealing and companies are under pressure to offer greater flexibility to attract candidates (lots of men and child free women like these perks too, plus they increase accessibility for disabled people to work). We don't need to leave that to the next generation, it's already happening.

This is true tbh.

My grandmothers both worked, one on the farm as well as supplementing with odd jobs, which is the more typical pattern. My other did do factory work all day, which wasn’t unusual among poor families. But it’s all less than ideal and more informed by economic circumstances. The idea you’d work for some sort of personal satisfaction would be a sick joke to them, probably.

I think overwhelmingly, mothers want flexible jobs and/or part-time jobs. Should be way more of those supported, but all I will hear about is the ‘wage gap’ as if our personal choices don’t matter.

We often say that women are not defective men. Why do we measure ourselves by their standards?

I just think a lot of feminists believe that equality will only happen if we erase the differences between the sexes. This is never going to happen and we just are making ourselves stretched thin as a point of pride.

For me I'd absolutely hate being a stay home parent. I need to be busy and my. Mind constantly occupied. I also need an identity other than just mum.
I was so ready to go back to work after each maternity leave. I hated going to playgroups as the only thing people talked about was kids. I hated not being able to spend money on what I wanted, when I wanted. I missed my work colleagues. I even found I was cleaning when I didn't need too because I was bored.
I'm a much happier mum when I'm at work. My. Kids benefit so. Much from me. Being happy.

This tells me you're not someone engaging with current feminism at all.

Feminism right now absolutely does not consider women defective men. The point about the wage gap and personal choice is that women's choices are often limited by the structural discrimination that occurs and they are forced into lower paying jobs or barred from promotions. Feminism right now is arguing for part time work and flexible work to be protected, to be available and to not be a barrier to higher pay and progression.

Feminism right now is intersectional and recognises that it isn't just mothers who benefit from part time and flexible work. It's also disabled people, for example. Feminism recognises that the opportunities and benefits afforded to white men should be equally achievable to the rest of society.

There is so much feminist discourse currently about the ways in which women are stretched too thin by the unfair and unequal demands placed upon us, and the ways in which the world is set up for the benefit of men. Honestly, go and acquaint yourself with what feminists are arguing and campaigning for; you are very out of date.

(When I talk about piecework style jobs for myself I am thinking more of independent consulting, report writing, analysis in my field etc which is an option I'm pursuing for myself especially after baby #2

Right. So you have options. There really isn't a problem then, is there?

Feminism right now absolutely does not consider women defective men. The point about the wage gap and personal choice is that women's choices are often limited by the structural discrimination that occurs and they are forced into lower paying jobs or barred from promotions. Feminism right now is arguing for part time work and flexible work to be protected, to be available and to not be a barrier to higher pay and progression

But inevitably part-time and flexible work will lead to lower pay and fewer opportunities. That’s just reality.

Feminism recognises that the opportunities and benefits afforded to white men should be equally achievable to the rest of society

What does ‘white men’ have anything to do with it? Weird you bring race into a discussion on our workplace needs. This is why I’m so so tired of ‘intersectionalism’. Please no.

There is so much feminist discourse currently about the ways in which women are stretched too thin by the unfair and unequal demands placed upon us, and the ways in which the world is set up for the benefit of men

Tbh the way this is talked about doesn’t sit well with me. I would like to see more part-time and gig work protections for mothers specifically, I don’t really want to see men get these privileges, nor have it sold as, ‘we need flexibility in the workplace for everyone’!

Maybe we do, but I see the burdens placed on working mothers and think it should be a targeted approach, I guess.

Any move towards this will lead to further wage gaps as well, could you tolerate that?

The problem is with the phrase 'that's just reality' as though society's structures are innate and inevitable. No, things change and they change far beyond what people might have once deemed possible. Is the workplace of 2025 anything like the workplace of 1925 or 1825? No, progress transforms the world. We can transform it again, but feminism wants to see it transformed in a way that ceases to automatically disadvantage women on the basis that 'it's just the way it is'.

Men will absolutely benefit from the transformation wrought by a feminist vision of the world, so you will see men get some privileges too and I'm not sure why you hate that idea so much. I don't see why flexible work opportunities for everyone is such a problem for you. In my circles, I do see fathers working flexible and from home. My job requires a lot of travel so if my husband didn't have the flexibility to do the school runs and look after sick kids, it would make it much harder for me but as it is, I benefit from not having to factor that in while I'm away - and when I'm not travelling, I'm the flexible one. Both of us having the perks and protections makes our family life smoother, easier and more equitable.