To be saddened that anyone would want to take away a woman’s right to safe abortion?

[Balayagequeen]

It makes me sad and angry that there are so many people who believe that a woman’s right to a termination is up for debate/political football.

It’s always privileged men too.

No woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn’t want.

An abortion is a very safe, simple procedure, it’s a personal and private choice, it’s discreet, no one is ramming it down anyone else’s throat or trying to persuade others to do it. The vast majority of the time is done very early on in the pregnancy. Evidence shows that there are no long term negative physical or mental effects on the woman.

As someone who works for children’s services, there are already far too many children in the care system and they can end up deeply traumatised, and having poor outcomes in life, adoptions often don’t work out and even when they do can be extremely traumatic for both the mother and child. That is not to take away from all of the wonderful adoptive parents and foster carers, but please let’s not romanticise it.

Most adoptions are because the birth parents are unable to care for the child, not because the mother willingly gave the baby up. Therefore to force a woman to give birth would potentially be the worse option for the woman, the child and any existing siblings. It isn’t a fairytale ending where a woman willingly gives up her baby to a loving couple to live happily ever after.

There are babies conceived in poverty, domestic abuse, rape, teenage pregnancies, older age pregnancies. These women should not be forced to give birth, it is not the better option for anyone.

If abortion was ever restricted in the western world then I have no doubt that it would result in unsafe illegal abortions, risking the woman’s life.

Women take all the risk with pregnancy and childbirth. They take an enormous toll on a woman body, her mental health, her life outcomes. We are not living in the dark ages, women deserve the choice.

What right does any privileged male who has probably never experienced any of these things and has probably done very little child rearing, who can never conceive or give birth, have to try to restrict a women’s access to abortion?

Are they themselves going to care for the babies born? Or will they expect that someone else will do it?

They wouldn’t, and I’m not saying that they should either. Abortions do have a place and the right to have them should be available.

I suppose it’s just more of a personal standpoint that I would hope that it wouldn’t be treated as an option to resolve rather than taking reasonable precautions.

I advised a family member to have an abortion as she wasn’t in a position to have another child financially, practically or emotionally. She thought this one was a girl (she has 2DS) so decided to keep him. She’s now raising 3 DS by herself and isn’t coping.

She’s still not taking precautions and has had multiple abortions previously

The conviction rate may be abysmal, but the actual act of rape is very clearly defined - no grey area.

So are you saying there isn’t a clear definition of what rape is? That there’s a grey area?

The ambiguity doesn’t derive from the definition of rape but the question of what constitutes consent.

Yes exactly.

I wonder if they mean the grey area is how hard it has been to convict rapists. But they’re talking like even the definition of rape is a grey area!

If I’m right, then having a “legal grey area” (interesting term for systemic misogyny) doesn’t change the fact women ARE raped, by the legal definition of rape

JFC.

No, the law is pretty clear about consent too.

You have clearly never looked critically at case law, or sat through a trial. I invite you to do so, it would be enlightening for you to see that there’s much more to law than a “yes” or “no” answer as to whether a crime has been committed.

I'm so sorry sorry.

It’s amazing that the question of consent can get all the way to the Supreme Court if it’s so simple…

Heres an example.

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/adult-social-care/391-adult-care-news/48894-supreme-court-hands-down-landmark-ruling-on-capacity-to-consent-to-sexual-relationsI’m

Oh my. This is worrying.

I have sat through a trial. I thought you were a criminal solicitor?

And in the case of consent the law is VERY clear.

Just because some cases involve a “he said she said” and two opposing sides are posing different arguments about consent, it doesn’t mean that the law itself is “a grey area”. It only means some people claim the sex was consensual. Thats not a grey area. It’s a defence tactic.

I said expressly that I don’t specialise in criminal law.

But I’m glad you have managed to simplify a hugely complex area of law. Perhaps you should direct the legal profession to help stream line.

Bless you for trying, but this isn’t a case of having to define what consent means in rape. It isn’t a grey area, it’s a clarification that people can’t have sex with those with no capacity to consent. Not a change or argument on consent itself.

So you’re saying there’s no legal definition of consent?

Because what exactly is the grey area you keep banging on about?

What and how have minimised exactly? You make no sense you will ab e to state it clearly

Why would a principle so simple need clarifying in the Supreme Court? You understand that to reach the Supreme Court it must have first been heard by both the crown and the court of appeal? So it’s that easy that it needed to be heard atleast 3x before someone could reach a conclusion.

<Bangs head against brick wall>

The principle/defintion of consent itself was not what was being challenged. It was a person’s understanding of their partner’s capacity that was being clarified.

Is there no legal definition of rape or consent then? Yes or no? I’ve asked a few times it’s weird you don’t want to answer.

You’ve shown you don’t understand how the law works. Legislation sets a rigid rule or principle and case law explores and develops it. You don’t look at legislation in isolation.

I understand perfectly thank you, but the Supreme Court case was not about defining the definition of consent, it was about clarifying a person’s understanding of someone else’s capacity to consent.

Are rape and consent defined in law - yes or no?

Im taking your refusal to answer as embarrassment for the fact you’ll have to concede that yes, there are very clear definitions, and that means there’s no grey area as you claim.

I'd like to know what an exception to rape would look like too.

Would there need to be a conviction?
Would there need to be evidence such as a police report?
Would it be enough for a woman to say that she has been raped?

The only issue causing me embarrassment is being drawn into an argument with someone who has resorted to name calling and swearing on a thread.

It’s a shame that nobody is answering.

Is rape and consent defined in law - yes or no?

What do you view as law? Do you mean legislation? Case law is law. I’ve said quite clearly that law starts with legislation and is built upon in case law, R v Bree is a key case in establishing consent and intoxication for example and stresses the need to examine the question of consent on a case by case basis. So even the “law” (case law) acknowledges the nuances in its own application and the need to properly look at the circumstances.

Can I ask why you’re even arguing with me on this point?

You agree that allowing women who would otherwise be refused an abortion to have one on the basis they have been raped would be difficult to implement. Those are my thoughts too, because whether or not a person has been raped can be difficult to establish.

So why choose to drill down into why I believe the question of rape is difficult to establish when we agree on the issue in respect of the subject here?

You’ve double downed on people who actually agree with you more than once on this thread - which makes me think you’re not all that invested in women just in occupying yourself with an argument.

Found one.

Perhaps this is something we as a society should sit down and discuss and come up with a solution for.