To be saddened that anyone would want to take away a woman’s right to safe abortion?

[Balayagequeen]

It makes me sad and angry that there are so many people who believe that a woman’s right to a termination is up for debate/political football.

It’s always privileged men too.

No woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn’t want.

An abortion is a very safe, simple procedure, it’s a personal and private choice, it’s discreet, no one is ramming it down anyone else’s throat or trying to persuade others to do it. The vast majority of the time is done very early on in the pregnancy. Evidence shows that there are no long term negative physical or mental effects on the woman.

As someone who works for children’s services, there are already far too many children in the care system and they can end up deeply traumatised, and having poor outcomes in life, adoptions often don’t work out and even when they do can be extremely traumatic for both the mother and child. That is not to take away from all of the wonderful adoptive parents and foster carers, but please let’s not romanticise it.

Most adoptions are because the birth parents are unable to care for the child, not because the mother willingly gave the baby up. Therefore to force a woman to give birth would potentially be the worse option for the woman, the child and any existing siblings. It isn’t a fairytale ending where a woman willingly gives up her baby to a loving couple to live happily ever after.

There are babies conceived in poverty, domestic abuse, rape, teenage pregnancies, older age pregnancies. These women should not be forced to give birth, it is not the better option for anyone.

If abortion was ever restricted in the western world then I have no doubt that it would result in unsafe illegal abortions, risking the woman’s life.

Women take all the risk with pregnancy and childbirth. They take an enormous toll on a woman body, her mental health, her life outcomes. We are not living in the dark ages, women deserve the choice.

What right does any privileged male who has probably never experienced any of these things and has probably done very little child rearing, who can never conceive or give birth, have to try to restrict a women’s access to abortion?

Are they themselves going to care for the babies born? Or will they expect that someone else will do it?

@pointythings I’m not advocating to change the law. My first post on this thread was to say that whilst I feel conflicted, I do think women’s rights to an abortion should be protected.

I don’t agree they’d be no demand for late term abortions - I’ve said before but there’s several examples of women concealing child birth and pregnancy and ending their newborns life. The safe haven “baby boxes” is IMO, an excellent initiative which gives women a safe alternative and a way “out” when they have no other options.

Having a "in cases of rape" exception is ridiculous , unworkable and unnecessary. It doesn't exist in UK law and almost no one is arguing for it.

Frankly, whilst I don't agree with those who would ban abortions in all circumstances there's a logical coherency to their argument.

Or would Parliament just shrug and say they don’t know how to to ascertain if a woman has been raped?

That comment is risible given the number of rape cases which never even make it to court, let alone result in a conviction. Do you think rape is only committed by a violent attack by a stranger?

In the UK, the maternal death rate in 2020-22 was 13.41 deaths per 100,000 maternities.

Maternal death rates in the UK have increased to levels not seen for almost 20 years | University of Oxford

OK so how would you feel about emergency services treating someone who is in a crash and didn’t wear a seatbelt.

A consequence of no seatbelt is serious harm right so why should we intervene?

What are you trying to ascertain? Given I don’t advocate for changing abortion laws? We appear to be on the same page and yet you seem to be tying yourself up in knots to argue.

You’ve said you don’t support, although don’t appear to condone, late term abortive. Perhaps you could set out your beliefs very clearly because at the moment you’re arguing with people who principally agree with you.

But you can't get pregnant by accident. So abortion shouldn't need to be a "right".

Well you’re not you’re using emotive language to shame women who have abortions you don’t feel worthy.

What are your reasons for objection to late term abortions? Presumably it’s something to do with you feeling it is inherently/morally wrong?

Because it’s not necessary. I don’t agree in pointless legislations that don’t serve women and would only play into the hands of people determined to paint woman as - what did you call them again…Baby killers. It would also mean those poor poor women who have to have a late term TMR would be painted by misogynistic loons as being no different from women who want the lifestyle abortions and would be called the most awful names. Thats not needed for the 0 people who want a 25+ week abortion because they simply changed their minds

Nothing whatsoever about morals or how I view the value of babies.

But then you say that a woman wanting a termination for lifestyle reasons at 38 weeks would be no different to a woman wanting the same at 8 weeks?

I didn’t say that? I said she matters more.

I'm not saying there would be 0 demand. I'm saying demand would be extremely low. And it's likely that this demand would not be from women who were happy clappy walking away from their pregnancy because they just couldn't be bothered any more - it's more likely that these would be women in heartbreakingly difficult circumstances.

I'm in favour of baby boxes and safe havens, but only alongside other solutions - not instead of.

What now?

You absolutely can get pregnant by accident. It's called 'contraceptive failure'. And it happens even to people who are using double contraception and using it correctly. Give your head a wobble.

When posters put forward arguments like this, I always turn to the late, great George Carlin:

“Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.”

Societies and governments that implement abortion bans are not the sort of societies or governments that support the provision of free healthcare or financial help for poor families. Plus anti-abortion Christian right in the USA are quite comfortable with the deaths of children in school shootings and, like Charlie Kirk, deem it a small price to pay for having the 2nd amendment.

Except a natural consequence can be a punishment in many cases.

Cancer for example.

Ot doesn’t mean we don’t intervene.

Many people who value women less than unborn fetuses. And yes they’re on this thread.

How do you feel about the fact many people would have preferred you die rather than remove the ectopic pregnancy?

The 1967 Act set the limit at 28 weeks. Changes in techology resulted in a reduction to 24 weeks in 1990.

The UK Parliament has considered but dismissed, further reductions. A Private Members Bill in 2023 looking to reduce the limit to 22 weeks failed.

Ah, you have to have sex first 🙄

Last time I checked, you can't do that by accident . . .

How many examples? I have asked but you haven’t clarified.

You can think it all you want but data suggests that the number of women seeking late term abortion for non medical reasons is so low it’s negligible. Your opinion is not fact

I’m out, I can’t be a thesaurus or a dictionary for you when you don’t understand basic words of the English language.

That’s PRECISELY my point.

Im not saying parliament determines if every rape claim is accurate. I’m saying a “abortions only is raped” law would be 100% unworkable precisely because there’s no process or terms which would be fair legal or reasonable

You can get pregnant by force. It's called rape.

I have upthread.

I support current laws.

Changing laws to abortions up to 40 weeks for any reason isn’t necessary or wanted, by anyone. I don’t believe in pointless laws being created for nothing more than philosophical reasons.

And pardon me but you really aren’t pro choice given your posts, IMO

Do you also think that people who get lung cancer from smoking should be denied treatment?

How do you square that with real life though? Let's step away from casual sex and one night stands because clearly you're one of those who is judgemental about those.

Sex is an integral part of a relationship. How do you deal with a situation where a couple:

• have all the children they want, or do not want children at all
• are using double contraception and that contraception still fails

They should just suck it up and have the child? Even if that leads to relationship breakdown and adverse consequences (usually poverty, but also the stress of not having parents together) for the children who are already here?

Aha, but the man could have a vasectomy! I hear you cry. Yes, he could - but what if he won't? Does the woman then refuse to have PIV sex? See above for the potential consequences of that decision, and how they would affect any living children.

Aha, but she could be sterilised! I hear you cry. No, she can't - because in the UK, women of childbearing age are routinely refused sterilisation because 'they might change their mind'. Yes, the little woman can't be trusted to make that decision.

Life isn't simple. It would be so helpful if the extremists on both sides of the debate would acknowledge that.

It can be done by force though. How do you feel about those women ending up pregnant?

So death isn’t a consequence of cancer??

They probably think a woman wore too short a skirt. Those types are always anti-choice

So you should abstain from sex unless you want a baby?