Thread 2 Turn your son in knowing he’d get the death penalty

[Idinnaenah]

1st thread is full - this is to continue the convo. My original question is below:

’Kirk’s killer has apparently been turned in by his family - or persuaded to hand himself in.
Trump &’his supporters have been very vocal about getting the death penalty for the shooter.
would YOU hand your child over, knowing that the electric chair would be the likely outcome?

YANBU - I wouldn’t turn him in to die.
YABU - I would he’s a killer and deserves all he gets

And you know what I find the most bizarre out of all of this

Is that the left are throwing the terms sociopath/ nazi about so flippantly
And then in the next breath saying they don't feel sorry for him or his wife and children
Like that's a completely normal and rational statement to make?!

They don't see the problems in their own vilification, just everyone who dare hold a different opinion.

I do agree although I will caveat by saying not everyone on the left is this way.

Adding to the Bob Vylan comment I made - he was filmed on stage saying he was dedicating a song to a piece of shit and that “if you chat shit you WILL get banged” and saying ‘rest is piss Charlie Kirk’ and words to that effect.

I then saw a video of him saying that in no way had he celebrated CK’s death. Complete gaslighting.

I was disgusted by what he said. But if someone had shot him in the neck after he said it, I would have been equally as appalled as I was at CK being shot.

From a quick google, it looks as though a gig of his was cancelled because of it.

Exactly this ☝️

The ones who are voicing the most wicked things on here against an innocent victim whose weapon of choice was … words. Words! Onto their keyboards spill the hatred in their hearts. And now they have killed Charlie, they are gunning for his grieving widow.

From this thread alone, it appears to me that the lovey-dovey wokey ‘be kind’ inclusive liberal left, are anything but. They are afraid of freedom of thought and freedom of speech and are quite happy to see it, literally, shot down.

No and you're right.
My family is very left and they're all appalled and saddened by the events of last week

But a large proportion feel it is acceptable to spout pure hatred.
I just saw the concert you mean on sm. He starts it saying his pronouns are " was / were"
Sickening
And the crowd cheering.

But that's okay... because CK was a bad person right? he hurt them with his words so he definitely deserved it.
But if you say his death was a disgrace
You're far right and a sociopath.

The world has gone absolutely insane.

Pascal Robinson-Foster‘s mother must be as proud as Tyler Robinson’s. Though I agree with you, I could never celebrate Pascal Robinson-Foster being shot for exercising his freedom of speech from a public platform, any more than I could support the legal execution of Charlie Kirk’s murderer.

Both far more filled with hate than the one person who, even after death and before his body was cold, is the target of the fruit of evil and bitterness. Too afraid, or too incapable of debate - let us kill it instead.

I haven't seen any videos where he has "shouted down" young students nor have I seen ones where he "needles" or "unsettles" them before the start
But then I haven't seen them all.

But his 'change my mind' is still much better than the lefts "#Nodebate" which strangely seems to have started his campus tours.

I’d say I’m a centrist - if I HAD to choose, I might have a toe towards the right. But I completely respect anyone’s right to stand on the left. I don’t want to wage war against anyone with a different opinion to me. I want to understand it because I might learn something. CK’s death and the events that followed have made me try to be more mindful of what I say because I don’t think the divisiveness should be perpetuated.

I agree it feels like everything is totally insane at the moment and it’s all reaching a fever pitch. I really hope this is as bad as it gets I really do.

I agree. I condemn CK being shot. I would condemn BV being shot, and I would condemn CK’s murderer being executed.

And you’ve hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. We can’t stand to hear things we don’t like so rather than try and debate it or understand it or even walk away from it, it gets killed.

Think of the arguments TRAs use : 'Words are violence'. Do you want to go down that road

Our violence: a man can never be a woman.

Their violence: fascist scumbags should die. (Just look under any tweet by JK Rowling when she mentions trans people.

‘Exile' who from public life? All Democrats? Democratically, I assume?

Basically any Democrat caught cheering for Kirk’s death should be stripped of their position. Goes for government hires as well.

And when you say people who criticised Kirk are criticising half the country, does this mean half of the US shares his most controversial views? (It was generally these which caused the dislike of many, not simply being a conservative Christian)

They are middle of the road views for conservative Christians and basically are typical Republican values.

So half of the US believes that raped 10yos should not be allowed an abortion,
that gay relationships are like a drug or alcohol addiction, and gay people are 'groomers' who, as he quoted Anita Bryant : 'cannot reproduce so must recruit'

Considering that total abortion bans are on the books in several states, yeah, it’s not an extremist position. But I would have invited Kirk to speak about the toll pregnancy would take on someone that young, and I’m certain he’d listen and come away with his mind changed. It’s happened with him before.

And ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ attitudes are quite common among Christians, yes.

that Michelle Obama didn't achieve her career via brain power but bc she's black

He is probably wrong about Obama but he’s NOT wrong about KJB or people like Claudine Gay.

that wives should submit to their husbands...

Cannot expand on it as idk the context.

That posters who think you shouldn't kill people because you don't like their ideas, are far right?

For the last time - I have not seen one single person on mumsnet justify the killing of CK. (If they did, I'm pretty sure this would be deleted by moderation.) It was wrong to kill him. It's wrong to kill anyone.

What I am objecting to is people minimising how dangerous the ideology CK was promoting is. Minimising the misogyny. Minimising the racism. Minimising the attitudes to things like gun control that created the very conditions of violence that led to his death.

The insistence that we must mourn the loss of this man without discussing what he stood for / contributed in this world - similarly we not criticise his widow for the rhetoric she is now putting out there and the vows to continue to promote his harmful and dangerous mission.

And as a decent person he also hated misogyny, racism and homophobia. None of those are the teachings of Jesus who is Charlie and Erika Kirk's Lord and Saviour.

Oh please.

She didn't say "evil do-er", she said "evil do-ers". This is absolutely key. Her rhetoric was violent, inflammatory, unnecessary and dangerous.

😂

I have seen your attempts @Tandora to troll and disrupt another thread elsewhere on this board. Having seen that, I'm sure you will hate everything Charlie Kirk stood for, especially his views on men who want to invade women's spaces by claiming they are 'women'. 😶

Words are not harmless! Stop pretending they are.

You do know we have laws in this country criminalising incitement to violence and hate speech.
These are people using words. It is a criminal offence. There is good reason for this.

CK did not deserve to be shot for his words, but he absolutely deserves to be criticised. He is accountable for his words. And his actions - he was instrumental in securing the election of Trump. The words of CK are not/ were not harmless. Same for his widow.

There are inflammatory remarks coming from both ‘sides’
I didn’t find her speech particularly palatable but I would find your views more palatable if you could at least acknowledge that people inflaming tensions on both sides need to pack it the fuck in (see example above about Bob Vylan)

Of course you may not care if I, or anyone else, finds your views palatable - as is your prerogative.

Calling another poster a troll is against MN guidelines.

I think talking in terms of 'sides' is part of the problem tbh. What 'sides'? Not everything is as simple as there being an 'us' and a 'them'.

I don't agree with any people who use violent and inflammatory rhetoric.

Nor do I support people who peddle far right ideology for money and influence.

You see, this is where reading without understanding is a problem. I did not say you are a troll - to do so would be rude and as you say, against guidelines. I said your attempts to troll. One is a noun one is a verb. I used it as a verb. Report if you must. That's fine. It did Dr Upton a lot of good to report somebody for using hurty words. It won't change the fact you attempted to disrupt a thread discussing men who demand to enter women's space because they pretend to be women. Which is one reason why I can understand you hating on Charlie Kirk.

Oh please. It's against mumsnet guidelines to accuse me of "trolling".

It's also completely false.

Saying things you happen not to like is not 'trolling'.

Annnyways. Moving on.

I agree, that’s why I typed it ‘sides’ because even using that word suggests an us against them mentality. It was a lazy way of explaining it on my part because how else do I word it?

I don’t support extremism, in whatever guise it takes, whatever the political views are… if they are extreme then I’m out. But I guess that’s the problem as we all have a slightly different definition of what is classed as extreme.

Free speech is always an interesting one because you will find almost nobody will say that speech shouldn’t be free but likewise, almost nobody would condone incitement to violence. So we all draw a line somewhere, it’s just where we draw the line that differs.

The point being I think that we all have more in common with each other than we realise.

I agree with all of this.

I imagine some of my opinions would fall into the category of what you perceive as 'extreme', but as you say part of the issue is that we may different views on what counts as being extreme.

However, I do not support discrimination, or hate speech, of any kind, nor do I support incitement to violence, and certainly not actual violence. Nor do I celebrate violence/ killing. I do not support killing people regardless of who is doing the killing, or what the person has done. To return to the OP, I would not turn over my child to authorities to be put to death.

I do, however, think that CK was a person with dangerous ideas, doing bad things in the world. I think the same goes for his widow.

I am very much of the opinion that politically speaking many of us on this side of the Atlantic would be most happy in the centre or slightly left/right of centre.
Going too far left or too far right is a bad thing. End of.
What I think is happening now is there was a perception that good people are on the left and old fashioned or backward people were on the right. As the left has marched further left it’s become extreme. There is no decent centre now so in order to counter balance the left some people are going right and too far right in many cases. I think we humans are incapable of staying in centre Leanne and are constantly going from one extreme to another.

@tandora

Interesting that you've picked apart the EK saying evil doers
Yes... there are more than one.

Yet the Bob Vylan "rest in piss.
Pronouns was/were
You fuck about you get banged"

Have completely missed your virtuous radar. Is this not equally inviting tension and hate. Or is it okay because it suits your views?

What has Bob Vylan got to do with the conversation please?

I thought this was a thread about CK and his assassin. Or in order for me to express an opinion do you require me to know and list every single person in the world who I think has said something offensive?

What ridiculous whatabboutery.

I was not aware of Bob Vylan's comments about CK's death. I would not repeat them. I think the first and third statements are nasty and gratuitous.
To be fair, I can't help finding the middle one quite funny in a dark humour way. It tickled me, I cannot lie.

It’s a bit like people who use the Bible as ‘evidence’ - ignoring the bits that they don’t like or sound mad ( owning slaves, raping your own daughters etc) and hammering on about the bits they do like.