Thread 2 Turn your son in knowing he’d get the death penalty

[Idinnaenah]

1st thread is full - this is to continue the convo. My original question is below:

’Kirk’s killer has apparently been turned in by his family - or persuaded to hand himself in.
Trump &’his supporters have been very vocal about getting the death penalty for the shooter.
would YOU hand your child over, knowing that the electric chair would be the likely outcome?

YANBU - I wouldn’t turn him in to die.
YABU - I would he’s a killer and deserves all he gets

There's certainly no Biblical passage explicitly saying raped children should give birth.

Tho tbf the Bible's sexual ethics are dodgy (undrstatement). I've never been happy w that passage where Lot's daughters are told to get their father drunk and rape him to carry on their tribal line. Couldn't there have been any other solution? Very disturbing. I suppose you could argue it's allegory, but still...🤢

Or Lot sending his daughters to get raped by the citizens of Sodom rather than the men with him...🙄

Don’t forget he met his wife when she was 29 and married her at 32 (he was at least five years younger than her).

So what he was saying was probably more nuanced. I have seen it among my own friends, the pool of good men shrinks as you get older. Because the good ones get snapped up so quickly and you are left with fewer choices. A lot of young men won’t consider an older woman for whatever reason, certainly I never considered an older man (mid 30s seems old when you are that age). I wonder if he ever addressed the ‘forever boyfriend’ syndrome, however. Because ime that is one of the biggest hurdles to marriage.

What is the point of these threads? A place to demonise a man who was killed for speaking? An opportunity to mock the USA as a whole and anyone who disagrees with you in particular? And now we can extend the obnoxious commentary and picking and pecking to a freshly grieving widow! What fun!

I can imagine that if someone had assassinated my husband, I'd feel fury very quickly, too. Just the thought of someone I love being murdered fills me with rage. Quite frankly, my first thought is that I'd like to see them dead. Even that I'd like to be the one to do it myself. Anger is an acknowledged stage of grief, or didn't you know that?

I imagine that the dad who turned in his son probably saw the big picture. No way was the murderer of a friend of the most powerful man in the world be at all likely to disappear - and anyone stupid enough to help him wouldn't last long. And harboring his son would mean his other sons would likely feel the wrath of the mob. I'm sure it was an excruciating decision, but even as incompetent as Pash Katel is, the people working for him and other law enforcement would have found him eventually. What do you want for your son: a likely shootout to the death or a prison sentence w a possibly plea taking the death penalty off the table because you made him cooperate. Even w/ the death penalty, no one on death row dies at sentencing, they go through many years of living before it's done. You'd at least get years to see and talk to your son.

I personally find the death penalty abhorrent, but it's not always applied when legally it can be.

Please your message is bad enough but the misuse of apostrophes just makes you look poorly educated.

They don’t want to admit their hateful speech and attitudes towards conservative Christians like Charlie has led to his death.

Instead, they either imply he had it coming because he’s a bad person and deserved it (so basically they think half of the voting public deserves this fate) or they say, lol yeah it’s better off he’s dead but no lol we didn’t do it!

What they don’t understand is Charlie only came to talk to them. The rest of us don’t want to talk to them anymore, we want to politically crush them and exile them from public life.

I don't think I could give my own child up for the death penalty, but thankfully I don't live in a country where that would be a possibility. But in this case, I reckon giving their son up was the most sensible thing they could do, to protect the rest of their family, and to give him a chance of making a plea deal to avoid the death penalty.

Actually the statements that she and the children were there were retracted, and based on her speech it appears she wasn’t. .

People are allowed to criticise EK. Her speech was extremely disturbing and inflammatory. She idolised Vance and Trump and vowed to continue her husband’s far right mission using divisive and violent metaphor.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson Charlie Kirk did say black people were better off in slavery and subjugation before the 1940's.
(That’s a Twitter link.) This was during one of his Q & As with students. He said there was “less crime” as a result of slavery.

Yep he also said that “black America is worse than it has been in the last 80 years”. He said black people were “better in the 1940s” because they “committed less crimes” (sic).

100%.

The minimisation of far right (misogynistic, racist and violent) ideology going on these and other threads is quite shocking.

Having seen some of the usernames engaged in this , however, it’s putting a lot of my previous frustrations and interactions on this site into sharp relief. I think I understand the context much better now.

This was an international story with wall to wall coverage everywhere and has huge potential consequences for the US and other countries.
So we get to talk about it.

We have to Unite against people who are promoting extreme ideas. I think some do not realise maybe the depth of what the people they want in power aim for, but many do. Most people in UK & US don't want an extreme government though, but are also not aware of how radical the people they vote for might potentially be.

Info sources which may find useful if curious :

This forthcoming book is v good on the Christian Nationalist plan for US (Theocracy, essentially), and its links w prominent politicians & other figures

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seven-Mountains-Mandate-Dangerous-Christianize/dp/0664269214

Other books on this I'd recommend would be :The Power Worshippers
Money, Lies and God
Wild Faith
Jesus and John Wayne
Building God's Kingdom : Inside The World of Christian Reconstructionism
American Theocracy
Disobedient Women by Sarah Stankorb

We should also be aware of the 'Orthobros' movement promoted by Putin in the US,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002bsx9&ved=2ahUKEwiBu6-MiNqPAxUHWUEAHTxGHXoQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw27VMxhl_ShO82UM_CljoIf

And the influence of ultraconservative Catholic sects like Opus Dei, of which Vance, for one, is a member :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=open.spotify.com/episode/6RJFjXUdZR6v1LpUq7pwfX&ved=2ahUKEwjZ9ovYiNqPAxVgUUEAHYkVAJ8QFnoECCoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw192EN6Y4m8vqJNLftUzHsd

This Substack is also good on how Christian nationalists are worryingly getting some Democrats onside too via prayer meetings :

https://jonathanlarsen.substack.com/p/gluesenkamp-perez-misled-town-hall?utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true

If you want to see why he was racist, start looking at some comments and posts from black commentators … they’ll give lots of examples. While, like most people, they abhor the murder of someone for their politics, there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of mourning.

Do we really want to say that hateful speech leads to violence? Did hateful right wing rhetoric cause Melissa Hortman, Paul Pelosi, John Hoffman, Gretchen Whitmer, Esther Salas...?

Think of the arguments TRAs use : 'Words are violence'. Do you want to go down that road?

'Exile' who from public life? All Democrats? Democratically, I assume?

And when you say people who criticised Kirk are criticising half the country, does this mean half of the US shares his most controversial views? (It was generally these which caused the dislike of many, not simply being a conservative Christian).

So half of the US believes that raped 10yos should not be allowed an abortion,
that gay relationships are like a drug or alcohol addiction,
and gay people are 'groomers' who, as he quoted Anita Bryant : 'cannot reproduce so must recruit',
that Michelle Obama didn't achieve her career via brain power but bc she's black, that wives should submit to their husbands...?

Is that so?

I saw an awful clip from one of his campus talks where a slightly camp black guy stood up to ask a question. As soon as Charlie saw him he was sneering and even more so as he started talking.

The guy was saying he’d been racially abused by white guys as he walked across campus. Charlie interrupted him and asked if he’d reported it. Guy said no and Charlie outright said he didn’t believe him, that if it happened he would have reported it. Said he thought the guy was making it up.

I found it really sad. He wasn’t prepared to listen to anyone with an opposing view. Worse than that he’d accuse others of lying with no proof. In that case best scenario is he was just a horrible person, worst case it’s it’s prejudice and racism which is making him so keen to dismiss the other person. I don’t think a white person should be dismissing a black persons experience like that.

of course none of that is a reason to shoot someone but I think it shines a light on the sort of person he was.

Most of what CK presented as “debate” was carefully curated aggressive/ provocative mocking of (often) vulnerable people. I was doom scrolling through the reels posted on his window’s insta yesterday - it was very revealing

The irony regarding 'lack of empathy'😂

It was telling that he rarely went up against anyone who might actually be able to debate with him, he loved nothing more than to shout down young students of 18, 19, 20 and had a very nasty way of needling them and trying to unsettle them before any ‘debate’ even started ‘ you the purple haired jihadi’ was a call for one to come to the mic.
But if they were obviously going to be on his side, MAGA shirt etc. it was a completely different tone from the start.

They're not just criticising his views though? They're celebrating his death! There's a massive difference.
I'm glad they're getting sacked

I've seen some appalling SM posts from the kind, caring and accepting left literally dancing about his death.
I've also seen people say that while they disagreed with his views that the assassination was appalling. So it would seem the left can have empathy and class but it is few and far between imo. As well demonstrated on this thread.
" maga barbie"

Honestly I am tired of the virtue signalling left making out They're the core of everything that's correct. As far as I can see they're the biggest, loudest and most concerning fascists going.

As far as I can see they're the biggest, loudest and most concerning fascists going.

Then there’s something wrong with your vision. News commentators have been sacked for simply pointing out that CK’s views were divisive and the sorts of things he promoted created the conditions for this type of political violence. meanwhile there’s some hard core violent retaliatory rhetoric coming from the right atm, including from CK’s widow. “To the evil do-ers, You have no idea what you have just unleashed in this nation, this world”, the “battle cry” of this widow,” etc.

Did anyone see what Bob Vylan said about CK on stage? It was disgusting IMO. He then posted a follow up video essentially denying everything he said when it was literally filmed.

I also don’t agree with people being sacked for saying they disagree with CK’s views.

What context is that exactly? That posters who think you shouldn't kill people because you don't like their ideas, are far right?

Saying that a man should not be murdered because of his beliefs is not "The minimisation of far right ideology". No one, of any belief, should be killed because of words.

I find the posters minimising the fact that a man was killed because of what he said, shocking. Likewise I find the blithe chucking around of words like nazi and sociopath shocking. It's not only people who agree with you who deserve to live. It's not only people who share your views who deserve compassion or even just the basic humanity not to celebrate their suffering.

Someone having views you strongly disagree with doesn't justify murder, and the absolute glee with which some posters have mocked a murder victim's wife in her grief, and celebrated that children will grow up without their father, is far more sociopathic and nazi than those people are ever likely to realise.

She's right though. I don't think the killer did realise what he was going to unleash. Just look at the backlash from the left and the right.
Look at the arguing on this one thread. It has unleashed a lot of repressed anger on BOTH sides. However, and i say that as someone who is politically homeless but probably slightly more right leaning.
The left are coming off FAR WORSE.
And the murderer of CK is an " evil doer" just like all other murderers.

And no i am talking about the nurse I saw green screening him being shot and dancing and cheering.
Or the teacher who put up a post laughing and singing he had it coming.

Or our UK based politician who tweeted something about his assassination not being that bad and implying Trump should be next

The left are not liberal and accepting at all. They just used to hide it well... but the mask is slipping.

Yes in these circumstances I would turn my son in.