Had you heard of Charlie Kirk before yesterday?

[Havetoagree]

Just that really? I hadn’t and wondering if I’m the only one. And why is it such a big story? I guess the association with trump. What would be the equivalent level of fame over here?

Many people have stopped calling the game 'chinese whispers' because it's considered to have racist roots so they game is more commonly referred to now as telephone. Certainly in my country at least, wasn't aware that the UK was still saying chinese whispers.

I think that people are hoping the man's legacy will be that of free speech martyr rather than that of a dangerous man who used his platform to persuade people towards views that would cause great harm to women and POC should he be successful in garnering support.
For the genuine proponents of free speech, the focus on the content of his speech diverts from the more salient issue of a person's rights to it. However, this is something of a red herring, as unless the man was murdered by the state for his views, his death at the hands of an assassin acting outside the law, who will no doubt when caught be punished to the full force of the law, is irrelevant to the right to speak freely.
The fact that once again a murderer has murdered someone with a gun in the US has no relevance to our rights to speak freely, just because on this occasion the murderers motive appears to be offence at his victims opinions.

Yup, my 6th former told me he'd seen the video. I can't stop him, but I said strongly that I really didn't think watching such content is wise.

What do you mean by alternative truths. There is only one truth.

He debated young college students because he wanted to encourage critical thinking, which he felt was lacking in the education system.

I am more pro-life than pro-choice but this isn't about me. He didn't say it was a difficult situation and would need to be considered carefully. He was categorically stating that the child would be birthed. He has also said No to abortion in any situation up to and including saving the mother's life. That is extreme.

He debated young college students because they are impressionable and easy to brow-beat. Let's be honest. As soon as he came up against people who could see through his wafer-thin arguments he came completely unstuck.

I do feel sympathy for his family as I consider myself a nicer person than I think he ultimately was.

But I do agree with the point that he rejected empathy, and now his supporters are telling people they should have more empathy.

I also feel he didn’t even manage to show any empathy for George Floyd when he called him a “scumbag” after he died.

No I hadn’t, and when I read what he had previously said, I’m not surprised someone took a shot at him.

Im not condoning murder at all! He should not have been shot, specially in public in front of his family like that, but freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences.

He should have been legally charged, not shot

Also, the main reason so many people are more outraged by it than normal is because he was super religious.

Ive seen the video too. It was…so quick

"I think it’s worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational."

Apparently he thought the cost of (his?) life was a price worth paying...

All of the most extreme sounding views that have been listed out in these threads when they have been examined, have either been completely false, or have been twisted, exaggerated or taken out of context. What remains are the quite regressive but fairly typical American right wing conservative views - sexism, strong opposition to abortion, gun control and DEI etc. If this had been the picture painted on here by his critics I would not have argued, but he has been painted as a monster.

I hadn't heard of him, but one of my colleagues who is 66, saw him shot in real time. But the cheering from the left is a shocking indictment of our current society.

Thank you, I will provide context.

I am sorry, this must be really painful given your background.

I can understand you come from this background and see the love and good qualities of people w these positions.

I can see how aeful it must feel to feel that Kirk's fate is v close to your background.

But can't you see why people might dislike people who think gay people having even loving committed relationships is a sin, or that women should submit and be led by their husbands, in some cases think gay sex should be illegal, only believe men should hold church leadership positions?

Plenty of people in the UK, where I am dislike conservative Muslim or Jewish or Hindus who hold similar positions, it's not Christian-specific.

There also appears to be a lot of sexual abuse covered up in the evangelical church, like the Catholic church (my church).

I've read that the purity culture movement did a lot of damage too, as did the ex gay movement, and the James Dobson corporal punishment movement.

Not to mention the hatred Jerry Falwell & similar stirred up during the AIDS crisis, tho I accept that was in the 80s.

I understand the Christians you refer view foetal soul as making all abortion immoral. But many of us view bodily autonomy as superseding that in the early weeks and esp dislike people who want rape victims to have no choice over whether to keep the baby or not.

As I noted in my PM yo you, you focused entirely on the baby and not the impact potentially on a rape victim.

Sorry but if DEI led to the lowering of standards (which it did among the FAA ATC) then it’s absolutely a question to ask here.

When it comes to airplane safety or to the medical profession, you want to be sure that standards are kept high and not lowered because you don’t happen to like the skin color of the people in that industry.

No, 43. Reasonable interest in politics. I’m guessing my algorithm didn’t blow him my way. (Although it blows me plenty of racist shite, so…)

Yes. Through my instagram. I am American so have an interest in American politics even though I don’t live there. I dont consider myself republican or democrat because I find them both too extreme. Like many Americans I’m homeless in the middle.

I agreed with him on some things and disagreed on some things but I liked that he was willing to have the conversation. Also that he was challenging the echo chamber of American universities.

hmm in terms of the who it would be like? He was a big name and I don’t think we have a comparison. But probably a bit assassinating Greta Thunberg or Nick Ferrari

Or Paul Pelosi !

🙄

If poss, please could you, when you have time, say which have been misinterpreted?

If the monstrous shoe fits

the context was his alignment with maga tells you all you need to know

yes, it was about 4 specific women, one of whom was Michelle Obama. Imagine being a college dropout out and having the audacity to say Michelle Obama doesn’t have brain power and was only hired due to affirmative action.

this comment on his show is a more generalised racism towards black women as a group rather than specific people.

https://www.mediamatters.org/charlie-kirk/heather-mac-donald-charlie-kirk-white-civilization-has-decided-engage-great

Putting aside that ultimately his concerns were rooted in white supremicism and a hatred for any form of consideration towards equality, it's possible to state things in a way that isn't harmful and prejudical towards an entire group of people.

And again, this wasn't one little thing in isolation. Everything the man said and did demostrated he hated black people, women and anyone who wasn't hetrosexual, and saw any suggestion of those groups gaining equal rights as harmful towards white, male americans.

But I do agree with the point that he rejected empathy, and now his supporters are telling people they should have more empathy.

My mind is all a-wonder at how some on the Feminist boards will react if/when Andrew Tate so much as stubs a toe.

I can ofc understand people pushing back on things like gay rights and purity culture. I left the church after all.

But to me, these things are all worthy of debate and discussion. Others seem to just want to shut down debate and declare certain things off-limits, I guess because someone,
somewhere, will have hurt feelings?

About the 10-year-old rape victim, should his daughter have had this to happen to her, I think the child would have been raised by her parents in a loving family home. It’s not certain that abortion would necessarily heal
that trauma.

For me, I would absolutely require termination if something like that should happen to my daughter. Because I don’t believe all life is worth saving, and I don’t want rapist scumbags to reproduce.

But I can understand where Kirk is coming from. And you should know by now the context within which this was said? Or the real-life case it was based on?

Yes I had watched several videos of his talking with students. What a formidable, logical and fair debator he was. Quite something really. Didn't agree with everything he stood for though. Very sad that this kind of person became a target for what we assume is a far left extremist - that's not clear yet. For sure he didn't deserve it.

For context, his thinking was that if children above a certain age saw criminals on death row be executed, it may make them think twice about going down that path. And before anyone comes at me, I disagree, but think it's an interesting concept. It's a bit different to seeing an innocent young man being assassinated!