Had you heard of Charlie Kirk before yesterday?

[Havetoagree]

Just that really? I hadn’t and wondering if I’m the only one. And why is it such a big story? I guess the association with trump. What would be the equivalent level of fame over here?

I get the strong impression that he was intelligent but also in some ways pretty immature. He spent a lot of time rapidly debating 20somethings & also hosted a show. The culture of this probs moulded him to aim for soundbites that 'own the libs', similar to what Ben Shapiro does to maintain a big YouTube following.

I feel he had the potential to make good arguments but he seems to have often seemed to fall into lazy, edgelord-style comments that were provocative and often unpleasant or offensive but don't really stand up to scrutiny.

Nope!

That's why I only go on here now. I'm fed up with stupid & offensive people. Yes, there is obvs that here, as we've sadly seen, but we are a pretty good forum overall for expressing different views with arguments to back them up.

I think the short-form aspect of SM is part of it, it wants snappy takes, not well thought out responses. MN thank goodness allows v long posts!

It's bc it feels horrible to criticise a recently dead person, esp one killed violently at only 31 w 2 young kids.

I think we should discuss his many views, including the abhorrent ones. The people justifying his death should be thrown off SM, though.

Yes you're probably right, he was more nuanced than how I described him as being, just caught up in the job/loop of being a "person who argues". Terrible thing to be shot for, to lose your life for, really. All those algorithms will continue regardless.

You don't know US evangelicals! So many give big showy sermons full of fire and brimstone. Think of 80s figures like Jerry Falwell.

Esp Christian Nationalists. Kirk was an impressionable young man, who was earlier more supportive of stuff like secularism & gay rights. Then he became spellbound by pastor Rob mcCoy, a Christian Nationalist who has some fascinating views.

Christian Nationalists, to be clear, challenge the church-state separation and think the government should be Biblically-influenced. Some are very extreme - Douglas Wilslon, who is close to Pete Hegseth, thinks men should be executed for gay sex, for one. Others are less so.

It is unclear how much Kirk subscribed to it, but over his final few year, it definitely was a big influence

DD told me some boys were watching the video in school (6th form) and discussing it. I saw in on X and it’s pretty horrible. No-one deserves what happened, no matter what their political views.

Yes as I said on the other thread, there is a training ground for conservative media for young men to "tell it like it is" much like Ben Shapiro.

Because they are debating students who are more liberal than the rest of the adult population, its very easy to come accross "wise" as most students will still be in the immature portion of their neuro-logical development.

I personally felt that it was punching down, as some of the more extreme things he and Shapiro have said was purely to illicit an emotional reaction to shut down the debate, that to actually debate the subject.

I wonder about that. I was in 6th form and when we were watching the live videos of 9/11 and those people jumping out still affect me today, but oddly the other videos just look like a movie.

No I hadn't. I have never seen him before either on any of the platforms. Since his death it appears he was a very controversial character.

I wouldn't describe them as devout either! They are cult leaders driven by power and wealth. Unravelling the mysteries of faith is way down the list of priorities for those people.

His wife seems sincerely devout.

She seems like a nice person, does charity work and also preaches.

This is a video where they discuss marriage together. Very sad to see now - they were obvs very happy together, and committed to their relationship.

Sadly she seems to be in the 'submit to your husband' school of evangelicalism. Why anyone would want to 'submit' 🤢 to Kirk beats me, but a nice woman in love w a not-so-pleasant man is hardly unusual.

A bit worrying the video advises wives not to discuss their husband w their friends. I get that she means that if you just talk about rows your friends may think he's worse than he is and give the wrong advise. But female friends talking to each other is valuable in situations where the husband is mistreating his wife. I'm not thinking Kirk was mistreating her, just think that it's bad advice.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.instagram.com/reel/DIc5PrnoR9w/%3Fhl%3Den&ved=2ahUKEwjXnqnWnNKPAxVMa0EAHSbDEnwQwqsBegQIDRAF&usg=AOvVaw0wLprR3LY5VRnZXIhu1VG3

You’ve contradicted yourself a little here though. In discussing his views, it is ok to be critical of them. You can disagree with someone, maintain that position, but also disagree with the shooting & violence in politics which is currently emerging here in the West. There is a legitimate observation to be made between the things he said, and the way his life was ended.
Also, his value is not higher or lower because of his age & parental status. The shooting itself is dreadful irrespective of those facts, and we shouldn’t be living in a time where people are murdered because their political views are controversial or don’t align with your own.
But we can think and say all of this, and also criticise the views he made publicly available.

Yes I had. Him, Ben Sharpio, Tucker Carlson. I’m sure there are loads more of them. I view them broadly as dangerous to women, minorities and LGBTQ people. Look at how many people think they are respectful because they are well spoken and polite regardless of what they actually say. Someone basically saying I’d just really like to have women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and not getting involved in all this complicated political stuff they are unsuited to does not respect women, however politely it’s said

But according to the fella who was shot gun deaths are "worth it" (a consequence of having access to guns).

I detest the heartless shitstain, and while I don't endorse any killing (unlike him including his abhorrent comments on the children of Gaza) and felt nothing while watching his shooting for the umpteenth time (just to see every angle), its bizarre that any of his white nationalist followers are upset given it's "worth it".

His devotees should have been outside yesterday doing a bit of gardening or cleaning out the garage rather than posting sad views on his passing, a fella who had no empathy. It contradicts what the cretin stood for.

I’m 59 and I knew who he was, watched him speak online several times. I was very shocked, I didn’t agree with him on his abortion views but I did on his trans opinions. He was a young man with a very young family, advocate of free speech and I was appalled.

No I hadn’t but both my kids (15 & 17) had.

Thankfully DD hadn’t seen it, though is obviously aware of the description of what happened. I often think how glad I am that during 9/11 we thankfully had no live streaming from the tower like we would undoubtedly see if it happened today.

In terms of right-wing thought, Kirk was very middle of the road. Not controversial at all. This is the kind of stuff any regular church-going American believes and he was trying to articulate this POV to radicalized college students.

He lived by debate and exchange of ideas. Why did he die like this, trying to reach people who I think are beyond saving?

A product of the most racist country in human history, kirk fed off the racism of his white nationalist followers, and believed in the great replacement (non whites taking over).

The good news is whites are dwindling there. For 400 years they have inflicted hell on non white peoples on that land, and the dominant narrative is changing.

No more crap about "the founders", an elite group of racist, slave owning tyrants (and a paedo rapist in regard to thomas jefferson).

Trump is the whitey backlash, but times are a changin.

Exactly. I feel some of the people saying this are quite naive : put a man on screen who as you say seems well-spoken & talks about men behaving responsibly & being family-oriented & it makes it very easy for them to ignore whatever else they're saying.

Whereas I'm suspicious as hell🤣 and expected the worst, no matter how someone talks. Too many public figures seem to play the 🐺 in 🐑 's clothing, and some Mumsnetters will happily be Little Red Riding Hood.

It reminds me of how Miss Jean Brodie loves Mussolini bc he seems like a strong, admirable leader. Obvs Kirk was nothing like as bad as that, but the principle underlying is similar.

Are you for real?

Why do you hate white Americans so much? You are literally wishing to erase us from our own country.

Horrific.

So in America it is 'middle of the road',and 'every regular churchgoer believes' that :

Abortion is worse than the Holocaust

Raped 10yos should not be allowed an abortion

Having gay relationships is like alcoholism or drug addiction

Gay people are 'groomers' who 'cannot reproduce so thry must recruit' (a direct quote from the charming Anita Bryant). Yes I know there are gay people who have done v bad sex ed programs & promoted trans, & other stuff. But in the quote, which I cited upthread, he seems to be making a blanket statement about all gay people. Quoting Bryant, who meant it as a blanket statement, certainly reinforces this

The Leviticus law that men should be stoned to death for gay sex is 'God's perfect law for sexual matters'

These beliefs are "middle of the road' among ',right wing regular church going Americans, are they.....? 'Not controversial at all'...?

If that's true, I have yet another reason to thank God I was born English.

lol there’s no way he thinks stoning is appropriate. Give me the clip or I assume you’ve just heard this from a third source and mindlessly parrot it.

And yeah, I know you can’t appreciate it, but Christians do believe that fetuses are individual humans with a soul. It’s not my belief, but it’s theirs. It’s not really that hard to understand though, is it?

No I don’t tend to watch or read the news. I googled him because of a post one of my family members put on Facebook