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Freedom of speech isn't tolerated by some

855 replies

WhatNextBanana · 10/09/2025 22:58

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2025/09/10/charlie-kirks-shooting-terrible-moment-american-democracy/

Political violence on the rise.

People are getting angry when people have Political views they don't agree with. Freedom of speech must be allowed not shutdown.

Tragic news of a young family man shot by someone today. Please remember he was a human with a family. Violence is never ok.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
LlamaNoDrama · 12/09/2025 10:01

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 08:23

So the left believes in empathy, oppressors and oppressed, perpetrators and victims, good and evil.

If you support the left then you can feel a sense of self righteousness about being on the "good"
side and that the "right" are the evil
or bad guys.

So when the left starts to lose ground to the right on opinion polls or on topics such as immigration or they lose arguments based on reality rather than emotion then the left becomes violent and aggressive whether that be Ricky Jones or an attempted assassination attempt on Trump or the actual assassination of Charlie Kirk.

The left are the fascists whether that be economically wanting state ownership of key industries or forcibly silencing opponents, all the while convinced that they are the "good guys".

Politically we are approaching the turning point in Western democracy and it is unclear which way it will turn.

It reminds me of my favourite quote by Alexander Tyler in late 1790's:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship"

I like how you ignore the fact people on the right sometimes get violent too...

smashinghope · 12/09/2025 10:01

I find it ironic, that people are arguing debating their points just like charlie did, yet he was in the wrong and we/you are not.

If anything this further cements the right of freedom of speech and no matter what our opinions are nobody deserves to be killed for them.

He was neither totally good or totally evil, just as we ourselves aren't.

MrsSkylerWhite · 12/09/2025 10:15

smallpinecone · 11/09/2025 10:24

Being homophobic doesn’t mean you want people dead….

It does if you are a fundamentalist or a member of Christian congregations in many countries worldwide, particularly on the African continent. The views held about gay people are horrific.

mbosnz · 12/09/2025 10:16

No single viewpoint has a monopoly on truth. We are all creatures of perception, of bias, of prejudice. It is so, so, easy to see in others, but to see in ourselves - well, it's like trying to see oxygen, or asking a fish to see the water.

I think that it easier than ever before, to live in an echo chamber, a sealed bubble, of voices and opinions that reflect, and reinforce our own, to refuse to engage, and avoid engaging, with those we find problematic and repugnant.

All too often, we want tolerance, we want understanding, and we want acceptance, and agreement, but we sure as hell don't want to give it. And why should we? After all, we are right. If they would only see.

And of course, we can always point to the outliers, the extremists, on the other 'side', to make our point, to reinforce our demonisation of those that exist in opposition to our own moral rectitude and shining superiority.

Idinnaenah · 12/09/2025 10:25

smashinghope · 12/09/2025 10:01

I find it ironic, that people are arguing debating their points just like charlie did, yet he was in the wrong and we/you are not.

If anything this further cements the right of freedom of speech and no matter what our opinions are nobody deserves to be killed for them.

He was neither totally good or totally evil, just as we ourselves aren't.

Kirk didn’t invent debating. Humans have been debating since they began using speech. There’s no irony there.
the only irony I see in this whole mess is that a man who argued that gun deaths were acceptable has been killed with a gun.

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 10:25

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 10:00

Posted on the othe Charlie Kirk thread too. Bears repeating.

As JK Rowling tweeted earlier: "If you believe free speech is for you but not your political opponents, you're illiberal. If no contrary evidence could change your beliefs, you're a fundamentalist. If you believe the state should punish those with contrary views, you're a totalitarian. If you believe political opponents should be punished with violence or death, you're a terrorist." Three hundred and thirty three thousand likes and counting. Thank God for rational, compassionate voices who are willing to call a terrorist a terrorist.

And, as Elon Musk tweeted "The left is the party of murder".

Two people from opposite ends of the political spectrum, one who has traditional leftist values and voted left at the last election. One who is right wing and voted for Trump.

Both are correct.

Every single person crowing about the slaughter of a man in front of his young children for speaking words you do not agree with is a fascist and totalitarian, in favour of terrorism and murder.

I no longer respond to such scum, just to be clear.

And before yesterday I had not heard of him, but I quickly educated myself and discovered that he was a law abiding man who did not advocate violence but believed in free speech.

Those who have been screaming about the danger from the right with their guns turned out to be the violent and dangerous ones all along.

Oh, and anybody claiming the man who was slaughtered in front of his children for speaking words you didn't like was not in favour of free speech is a fucking liar.

Idinnaenah · 12/09/2025 10:29

Americans seem completely unable to see the link between having lots and lots of guns and lots of lots of people getting shot.

mbosnz · 12/09/2025 10:32

You know, yesterday being September 11, I found myself wandering around my memories, as you do, of that day.

That day, as the second tower was hit by the plane, we were watching it in the board room. I worked for an American company, with offices in the twin tower.

As we watched in horror, my co-workers spontaneously began a chant, in rage,in grief, and in fucking terrifying anger.

'Kill them. Kill them all'.

I yelled at them. 'WHO? KILL WHO. WE DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING ABOUT WHO DID THIS, OR WHY!'

That was when my boss bodily yanked me out of the room, because he was kinda worried that the mob might turn on me. . .

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 10:33

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 10:00

Posted on the othe Charlie Kirk thread too. Bears repeating.

As JK Rowling tweeted earlier: "If you believe free speech is for you but not your political opponents, you're illiberal. If no contrary evidence could change your beliefs, you're a fundamentalist. If you believe the state should punish those with contrary views, you're a totalitarian. If you believe political opponents should be punished with violence or death, you're a terrorist." Three hundred and thirty three thousand likes and counting. Thank God for rational, compassionate voices who are willing to call a terrorist a terrorist.

And, as Elon Musk tweeted "The left is the party of murder".

Two people from opposite ends of the political spectrum, one who has traditional leftist values and voted left at the last election. One who is right wing and voted for Trump.

Both are correct.

Every single person crowing about the slaughter of a man in front of his young children for speaking words you do not agree with is a fascist and totalitarian, in favour of terrorism and murder.

I no longer respond to such scum, just to be clear.

And before yesterday I had not heard of him, but I quickly educated myself and discovered that he was a law abiding man who did not advocate violence but believed in free speech.

Those who have been screaming about the danger from the right with their guns turned out to be the violent and dangerous ones all along.

It really doesn't bear repeating because it's nonsense. No, the left are not 'the party of murder'. It was right wing ideology that motivated the Hortman murder, the Heyer murder, the Pelosi attack - violence and murder are not the exclusive tools of the left and you know that as well as anyone else. It's absurd to claim otherwise.

So your rhetoric is disingenuous, dishonest and deliberately divisive. In pretending to claim the moral high ground, you are exploiting the murder of Kirk in order to whip up anger against the left. It's contemptible - and it's extremely obvious.

KTheGrey · 12/09/2025 10:44

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 08:23

So the left believes in empathy, oppressors and oppressed, perpetrators and victims, good and evil.

If you support the left then you can feel a sense of self righteousness about being on the "good"
side and that the "right" are the evil
or bad guys.

So when the left starts to lose ground to the right on opinion polls or on topics such as immigration or they lose arguments based on reality rather than emotion then the left becomes violent and aggressive whether that be Ricky Jones or an attempted assassination attempt on Trump or the actual assassination of Charlie Kirk.

The left are the fascists whether that be economically wanting state ownership of key industries or forcibly silencing opponents, all the while convinced that they are the "good guys".

Politically we are approaching the turning point in Western democracy and it is unclear which way it will turn.

It reminds me of my favourite quote by Alexander Tyler in late 1790's:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship"

That is a brilliant quotations.

It is exactly the position that government finds itself in. And it is the trouble with how we redistribute wealth.

I do genuinely wonder if government should only ensure the existence of public goods and we should gain access by pro social behaviour. Don’t worry about who will be judging this it will be me. (“You told your teacher to f* off so now it will take a full day of pro social behaviour to re-access school.”)

I don’t know what we will do with those who are incapable of pro social behaviour.

Please send more quotations.

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:45

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 12/09/2025 09:38

Your "simple calm observation" is that the left as a class are fascists. Don't you think that might be just a teensy-weensy bit prejudiced?

No more than those that describe the right as fascist or who describe Charlie Kirk as misogynistic or homophobic or racists or bigoted.

However if you look at historical precedence of fascism and Nazis they have a lot more in common with the left than the right. State control of key industries, state controlled policies in education, restrictions on freedom of speech and suppression of dissenting voices.

The Nazis weren't called the National Socialists for nothing.

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:49

KTheGrey · 12/09/2025 10:44

That is a brilliant quotations.

It is exactly the position that government finds itself in. And it is the trouble with how we redistribute wealth.

I do genuinely wonder if government should only ensure the existence of public goods and we should gain access by pro social behaviour. Don’t worry about who will be judging this it will be me. (“You told your teacher to f* off so now it will take a full day of pro social behaviour to re-access school.”)

I don’t know what we will do with those who are incapable of pro social behaviour.

Please send more quotations.

Given that you will be the one deciding the allocation of wealth and services, I don't dare criticise your post.

All I want to add is that those are are such wise words oh glorious leader, you are an inspiration to us all.

Now about that £10m per annum passive income and country estate....

pointythings · 12/09/2025 10:49

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:45

No more than those that describe the right as fascist or who describe Charlie Kirk as misogynistic or homophobic or racists or bigoted.

However if you look at historical precedence of fascism and Nazis they have a lot more in common with the left than the right. State control of key industries, state controlled policies in education, restrictions on freedom of speech and suppression of dissenting voices.

The Nazis weren't called the National Socialists for nothing.

Oh not that trope again. The Nazis chose that name for electoral gain. They were not by any definition socialists.

Are you going to accept the data pisted a while back, demonstrating that the majority of political violence comes from the right?

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 10:50

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:45

No more than those that describe the right as fascist or who describe Charlie Kirk as misogynistic or homophobic or racists or bigoted.

However if you look at historical precedence of fascism and Nazis they have a lot more in common with the left than the right. State control of key industries, state controlled policies in education, restrictions on freedom of speech and suppression of dissenting voices.

The Nazis weren't called the National Socialists for nothing.

Oh again, very disingenuous. Anyone with a fraction of knowledge about history understands that the Nazis did not have their roots in socialism. Anyone with a shred of political understanding accepts that fascism is a far-right ideology. This is a deliberate warping of reality.

And again, I notice that you still have not acknowledged the existence of right-wing violence against left-wing victims.

PaisleyGilmourStreet · 12/09/2025 10:50

I don't post much online. I read for a bit, then do something more enjoyable.

I see people being cancelled and having their lives ruined for posts and tweets, at the altar of (what they perceive to be) freedom of speech. It perplexes me because, unless you're VERY high profile and/or VERY respected in your field, no one actually cares what you think! So why not just get on your soapbox in a safe space (at home, or with real people you actually know personally!) and say whatever you like, be as controversial as you want. Get it off your chest and on with your day 🤷‍♀️

Why is it so important to some that they share their thoughts with strangers on the internet? There are people who've had their lives ruined for stating opinion online that they could've just said to their friends/family (to no different effect!).

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:52

LlamaNoDrama · 12/09/2025 10:01

I like how you ignore the fact people on the right sometimes get violent too...

Indeed those on the right sometimes get violent as well. Historically this has been when the left has been in ascendency whether that be Jo Cox and Brexit or Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement.

What we are seeing now is the right in political ascendancy and the left reacting with violence.

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 10:54

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:52

Indeed those on the right sometimes get violent as well. Historically this has been when the left has been in ascendency whether that be Jo Cox and Brexit or Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement.

What we are seeing now is the right in political ascendancy and the left reacting with violence.

Melissa Hortman was murdered in June this year.

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 12/09/2025 11:09

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:45

No more than those that describe the right as fascist or who describe Charlie Kirk as misogynistic or homophobic or racists or bigoted.

However if you look at historical precedence of fascism and Nazis they have a lot more in common with the left than the right. State control of key industries, state controlled policies in education, restrictions on freedom of speech and suppression of dissenting voices.

The Nazis weren't called the National Socialists for nothing.

Congratulations, you have just shown yourself to be a) woefully ignorant of the origins of the nazi party, and b) embarrassingly susceptible to right wing memes.

I'll give you a hint: What was the second line of the poem?

crumpet · 12/09/2025 11:18

It’s probably already been said, but it’s extremes which is the issue. Extreme left and extreme right are in many ways quite hard to tell apart. Both feel the right to punish those who don’t tow the line. Neither would recognise tolerance if it hit them in the face. Neither will accept any nuance, pluralism of views or any deviation from what they determine is right-think.

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 11:23

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 10:25

Oh, and anybody claiming the man who was slaughtered in front of his children for speaking words you didn't like was not in favour of free speech is a fucking liar.

Edited

Been reading up on Charlie Kirk, who I'd never heard of or seen speaking before the radicalised left slaughtered him in front of his children for speaking words they didn't like.

Back in 2016 he tweeted "You can tell a lot about a person by how they react when someone dies."

You were right, Mr Kirk, the be kind/progressive/we hate guns group is once again shooting people who speak words they don't like and their cult members are cheering and sneering your slaughter.

https://x.com/charliekirk11/status/802991026822676480

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 11:26

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 12/09/2025 11:09

Congratulations, you have just shown yourself to be a) woefully ignorant of the origins of the nazi party, and b) embarrassingly susceptible to right wing memes.

I'll give you a hint: What was the second line of the poem?

Try looking at both sides of the argument:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/QiIIKguYjlY?feature=shared

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 11:30

thebabayaga2025 · 12/09/2025 11:23

Been reading up on Charlie Kirk, who I'd never heard of or seen speaking before the radicalised left slaughtered him in front of his children for speaking words they didn't like.

Back in 2016 he tweeted "You can tell a lot about a person by how they react when someone dies."

You were right, Mr Kirk, the be kind/progressive/we hate guns group is once again shooting people who speak words they don't like and their cult members are cheering and sneering your slaughter.

https://x.com/charliekirk11/status/802991026822676480

Edited

I can certainly tell a lot about the people leaping on this murder in order to whip up hatred and division with overblown rhetoric about how dangerous the left is - while absolutely ignoring very recent examples of political violence from the right.

What strikes me about Kirk's death is how frightening and tragic it is that someone can walk onto a university campus with an assault rifle so easily in America. Like every dreadful headline about yet another school shooting, I think about the waste and the horror and the pain it causes when guns are so readily available.

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 11:31

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 11:26

Try looking at both sides of the argument:

It's very embarrassing to try to argue that fascism is a left wing movement with a YouTube video.

pointythings · 12/09/2025 11:34

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 10:52

Indeed those on the right sometimes get violent as well. Historically this has been when the left has been in ascendency whether that be Jo Cox and Brexit or Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement.

What we are seeing now is the right in political ascendancy and the left reacting with violence.

Except that the data showing the majority of violence coming from the right is recent and current.

So your statement is a colander. Distorting reality achieves nothing.

1dayatatime · 12/09/2025 11:38

CantCallItLove · 12/09/2025 11:31

It's very embarrassing to try to argue that fascism is a left wing movement with a YouTube video.

i don't know what is embarrassing about using a balanced analysis from YouTube to explain a political point.

Other than intellectual snobbery and an inability to create a rational fact based counter argument- now that is embarrassing.

But how about the views of Anthony Gregor, Professor of Political Science at University of California instead:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._James_Gregor