to think some people actually wish we didn't live in a welfare state?

[milkgoddessmakesthefinestmilk]

all this talk, about whether it is right for parents to choose not to return to work, and why do people keep having children when they are on a low income.
and all the other million threads on MN about people on benefits etc.

makes me wonder, do you actually wish we didn't live in a welfare state?

i certainaly don't, no NHS people dying because they counldn't afford treatment.
people that are disabled, sick and unable to get a job, struggling to eat, living rough etc

be a pretty unpleasant country then you know.

I wish I lived in a country where people didn't abuse the welfare state and leave it underresouced for those who need it.

yawn...... she's off again

yes but you either live in a welfare state or not.

you will always get some that work or abuse the system

I am glad we live in a welfare state, of course it is open to abuse. But so is the US system of Medicaid etc.

But placing limits on how many children people have, that's the ultimate "Nanny State" isn't it?

Very true jammi

I don't even mean abuse the system in a criminal benefit cheat way. Its things like getting a drs appointment so you can get a prescription for paracetamol for free even though you can buy it really cheaply otc and you won't actually die without it. Some people allways collect their repeat prescriptions because they are entitled to them and they just stockpile them at home. Often elderly people have a fortune in fybogel and gavison at home. My grandmother got tamazapan every month for years after she had stopped taking it and threw them all away.

I don't like the way that its ok to get really drunk and collapse because you know that an ambulance will come and take you to hospital and you will be treated for free, you can do it again the next weekend and the weekend after that and a few years later your liver disease will be treated for free. You can gourge yourself on pies until you are 5 times the size you should be and the nhs will treat your bad joints, heart disease and diabetes for free.

And education is free but you are not obliged to take full advantage of it.

I want the welfare state but it has lead to some people having no sense of personal responsibility.

I don't think that the state should limit child benefit to a certain no of children but I don't think more children should entitle a family in LA housing to a bigger house. You should just manage the same way as large families in the private sector.

I don't think anyone would not want the welfare system. Life was pretty brutal beforehand. But I do think there should be changes made.

When I started work at 16 they explained National Insurance to me and it made a lot of sense- pay in while you are working and if something happens so you can't work they pay you. What no-one accounted for was to have so many people who never work and always take out.

Over the years they have tinkered with bits of it but in such a way that if you are someone who has always worked and you are suddenly longterm sick or made redundant you get a bare minimum, while people claiming income support etc for their entire lives get everything going. This is where it is wrong.

We need to go back to the principles of temporarily out of work, not a lifestyle choice.

There is really no excuse for an able-bodied fit person to be out of work longterm these days. We shouldn't have a system where you are better off on benefits.

We need to look after people who genuinely can't work and make those who can work do so.
(and that doesn't mean forcing the genuinely disabled to go to work either)

Totally off topic, but does MN have a debates section, or has it ever been considered?

All this stuff is worthy of discussion but there's not really anyway to put it other than AIBU - which by it's nature invites criticim of the OP. I'd like to see a place where we could debate this without the usual "popcorn and hard hats" stuff going on.

In response to the OP - I don't think I've ever heard anyone (even the staunchest individualist) say they'd rather be without the welfare state. Now being without those who abuse it, well that's another story....

I don't wish it but I can understand how the Welfares Sate we have is failing hundreds of thousands of people. Trouble is, there's no way we can deal with the people who are defrauding the system without it effectng many people who are genuinely in need.
It's sad when you see kids being raised in families who rely on the welfare state and who as a result are themselves trapped in a cycle of living off benefits.

My sister's step-daughter once said when she grew up she wanted to be just like her dad and stay at home all day for free. My sister had to point out that he claims incapacity benefit, not becuase he wants to but because he needs to because of his health problems. I think it's sad that she sees his lifestyle as something to aim for in life.

wherearethekeys and evenhope - sensible, intelligent posts. I must admit to heartsink when I saw the OP and thought 'Oh she's at it again!' but good to see that there are sensible posts on here.

freddysteddy - good idea

Jammi- please can you tell me how ou would be £1000 a month beter off by claiming benefits?

I'm sure there are alot of people on here, who have no choice but to claim benefit, would love this infprmation too as Im sure they don't have anywhere near that kind of income.

doesn't it just boil down to me and 'people like me' deserve to be given money and support by the state and them and 'people like them' deserve to have their benefits withdrawn

Tenacious turn that argument on its head. If being on benefits is so awful why would someone able-bodied in their 20s or 30s choose not to work? (I'm not talking about lone parents here either btw)

I don't know about anyone else but I was brought up to believe that you go to work and pay your way. It shouldn't be a "choice" to freeload off the state when you are perfectly capable of working.

No Twiglett I don't believe it does boil down to that at all. It boils down to people playing their part in society which is working to pay tax for public services and to support those who can't for whatever reason.

agree evenhope.